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Forensic i.e. handwriting expert view

(Querist) 15 October 2014 This query is : Resolved 
I am convicted by trial court u/s 420,471 to get govt job by producing forged ST certificate. some office lapses went against me but the ST certificate itself is a big evidence that it was not a forged document. we filed appeal u/s 374(3) CRPC.My lawyers are saying that there is no chance to examine ST certificate by handwriting expert and forensic expert (to know the age of paper) now in appellate court. But I am sure that there will be some provisions for it. please give me idea how can i get examined the ST cetificate by forensic expert? under 391 CrPc?
Advocate. Arunagiri (Expert) 15 October 2014
There is no acceptable method to know the age of the certificate.

But, forgery signature or handwriting can be proved through the forensic expert. You can seek for forensic expert opinion even in the appeal stage.
ajay sethi (Expert) 15 October 2014
agree with MR arunagiri
Devajyoti Barman (Expert) 15 October 2014
Yes, apply for additional evidence. It is acceptable in appeal stage only.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate (Expert) 16 October 2014
age of paper can be determined. contact a forensic scientist.
Rajinder Kumar (Querist) 16 October 2014
Under which section (i.e. Cr.Pc.) i should ask court to get examined the certificate under the supervision of court?
Or I should privately compare the photocopy of certificate with the photocopy of the admitted signature? and then report as additional evidence be submitted to court?(in which section? 391 Cr.Pc.?)
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate (Expert) 16 October 2014
first meet forensic scientist and examine technical feasibility.

your advocate has already given you view that new evidence cannot be lead in appeal.
DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g (Expert) 16 October 2014
There is great misconception about forensic examination of writing or signatures in similar cases and particularly in cheque cases.

First of all there is no method to declare the signatures to be authentic. Similar signatures can be made by other person and now even by software by a primary student.

Unless you can prove that particular person made signatures before a reliable witness there is no meaning of any forensic examination.

Rajendra K Goyal (Expert) 16 October 2014
Consult other lawyer and show him the full case file and last orders.
Rajinder Kumar (Querist) 16 October 2014
lawyer's knowledge may be increased and his help may be taken after giving him lawyer's club advices. But tell me first for my basic question that under what section(i.e CrPc) I/ lawyer should go in court for additional evidence or expert view?
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate (Expert) 16 October 2014
do you have no other merit in the appeal.
Dr J C Vashista (Expert) 17 October 2014
Did you take the services of private "Hand Writing Expert"? If not take it in your own interest.
Rajinder Kumar (Querist) 17 October 2014
Facts on record are that my mother is scheduled tribe lady and she applied for the ST certificate for her children when i was less than 16 years of the age. various circulars of govt of India and apex court decision says that an offspring can have social status of his mother also. handwriting expet expressed his view that no view can be expressed on the sampling sent by CBI. CBI did not sent the sample of handwriting of the same period of the happening. Trial court relied on the statement of SDM who said that my sign are forged and one dispatch register has not entry of my ST certificate. but the register produced by CBI was not in use at that time because in it there is closing of entries one year prior and on next page it was found written that issuance of income/character certificate and no ST/SC certificate was issued after that in the register whereas before this there was almost in every page there was at least one entry of SC/ST certificate. trial court creates doubt on my integrity saying that i had to prove the genuineness of the certificate by comparing it. Trial court sentenced me on the basis o circumstances evidences.
Anirudh (Expert) 17 October 2014
This information you should have posted while first posting the query.

You say that your mother obtained "ST" certificate for all her children. You can easily produce the "ST" certificate granted to your brother(s)/sister(s) from the same office.
Rajinder Kumar (Querist) 17 October 2014
ST certificate was produced by me.
V R SHROFF (Expert) 17 October 2014
Handwriting Expert's Opinion will be binding on courts.
Guest (Expert) 17 October 2014
Drear Author, You say the ST Certificate of yours is an evidence,where as you have not said whether you belong to the same by your father.Only the community of which your father belongs would treated as yours.State the Full facts Please.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate (Expert) 17 October 2014
please state facts of the case.
V R SHROFF (Expert) 17 October 2014
I agree with Expert : N.J.S.Rajkumar,
As ST certificate verification ; final authority of it's genuine ness is official record of is issuing authority.. GOVT.

GOVT RECORDS can supersede Forensic Expert's opinion.
Anirudh (Expert) 17 October 2014
It is to be noted that the Govt. official (SDM) whose signature is there on the ST Certificate has disowned it by giving statement to the Court that his signature on the said ST Certificate had been forged.

Guest (Expert) 17 October 2014
Dear Author,Even if you had obtained a ST certificate from Govt basing on false documents it would be only an additional Offence by you.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate (Expert) 17 October 2014


@author. Your father was not ST and it appears caste certificate was fraudulent obtained.

It doe snot appear to be forged.

Please be clear

(1)Whether you got a govt job in ST quota.
(2)Whether you benefited from this certificate.
(3)Whether you faced criminal charge due to this certificate.
(4)Whether you were alleged of obtaining false certificate.
(5)Whether you were alleged of producing forged certificate.
(6)Whether you had during the trial insisted upon authenticity of the certificate.
(7) Whether you during trial applied for forensic examination of the certificate.
Guest (Expert) 17 October 2014
Excellent and Precisely Questioned By Expert Mr.Sudhir Please answer the same .
Rajinder Kumar (Querist) 17 October 2014
1.yes.2.yes3.yes.4.yes.5.yes.6.yes.7.no
V R SHROFF (Expert) 17 October 2014
EVEN IF SIGN IS FORGED, HOW THEY ISSUE IT, WHAT THE RECORDS OF GOVT SHOW??

& pl reply whether your father is SC/ST?
If not, respect the court Order.
Guest (Expert) 17 October 2014
Dear Author Please Reply the Query related to your Father whether he is from the Original Caste of Caste Certificate obtained and produced by you for the Job.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate (Expert) 17 October 2014
you replied "Yes"to both questions.

(4)Whether you were alleged of obtaining false certificate.
(5)Whether you were alleged of producing forged certificate.

either

one can be alleged of applying for ST certificate and obtaining a ST certificate while not being ST the it a false certificate.

or

one can be accused of himself manufacturing a certificate (not obtaining by false declaration)

one cannot be alleged for both.

Come clear.



DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g (Expert) 17 October 2014
Facts are just a door to TRUTH.

The advocate has to raise the veil from facts.

Since the accused is convicted. If the certificate would have come from proper channel there was no problem and no need of any forensic examination.

It seems that some mischief is played so the court has convicted the accused.
T. Kalaiselvan, Advocate (Expert) 19 October 2014
The query has been properly observed by all experts with none giving a concrete suggestion to the author because it is still not confirmed that to what extent is the author is involved in the fraudulent act. Now to his query about which section in cr.p.c. to refer the matter to examine the document, well, it will not be cr.p.c. but the evidence act. Ask your advocate to do some home work on it.


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