Intimating current employer for appearing upsc and maharashtra psc prelims exam
ASHISH
(Querist) 28 December 2013
This query is : Resolved
Dear Sir/Madam, I am working in central govt department on Group B non gazetted post from 6+ years. I joined on the basis of Diploma in Engineering. During the service, I have completed graduation (B.A.) through distance learning mode from open university. I obtained this degree without knowledge of current employer i.e. it is not included in my personal file. now when I approached to my office to intimate that i'm going to appear for MPSC (Maharashtra) state services prelims, they told me that they can't accept intimation as minimum eligibility i.e. graduation, is not in the records. Please note that MPSC has same procedure for application as that of UPSC CSAT. Thanking you.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 28 December 2013
deptt is correct.
why you did not take permission before joining course and why not recorded your qualification in service book.
You can still hope for mercy of deptt if they give you ex-post facto permission or else you are not able to use this qualification anywhere in Govt sector.
malipeddi jaggarao
(Expert) 28 December 2013
Since it is not regular study, there is no violation of any rule if you did not obtain prior permission for further studies from your present employer.
You have a right ask your present employer to record the qualification and do the needful. They can not deny your right of further education, when you have pursued the same during your employment hours.
Dr J C Vashista
(Expert) 28 December 2013
I endorse the expert advise of Mr. Malipeddi Jaggarao, you can ask your employer to record the qualification recorded in your service book and grant permission to take MPSC / UPSC exam.
Rajendra K Goyal
(Expert) 28 December 2013
Request your department for post facto permission and adding your qualification in your record.
ASHISH
(Querist) 28 December 2013
Dear sirs, Thanks for your valuable comments.
Prior starting graduation I do sought permission from dept.I was orally told that..
1. As my job is technical, I should pursue Engg degree, B.A. is irrelevant.
2. As per dept. policy, 3 years service is must for granting higher education permission.
3. You can pursue your choice of education with your own time and money.
Sir,That was past anyway. Now, I was preparing for MPSC/UPSC from last two years and set to appear for it in 2014. I don't mind loosing my current job seniority/benefits that will be carried if I go proper channel. There are almost no or very thin chances that my office will accept to record my graduation, consider this option is not available. Please guide me the best way I can move forward. Thanking you.
ajay sethi
(Expert) 28 December 2013
your department is right . you had diploma in engineering . you ought tohave done further studies in your field .
now that you have completed your graduation you can request your office to record same in your service book . oobtain written permission before appearing in UPSC / MPSC exams .
Rajendra K Goyal
(Expert) 28 December 2013
If you have given letter to your department for seeking permission for graduation,you are having diary no. or receipt of letter given and was not advised any thing in writing, you can quote the reference of the same correspondence now for adding your qualification.
P. Venu
(Expert) 28 December 2013
The extant instructions(an administrative one, not a statutory rule) only require a Central Government employee to give due intimation while applying to UPSC and State PSCs. It is a mere intimation and the Department need not go into a roving inquiry or grant any permission. Hence the intimation given, if in writing, is sufficient. You need not concerned of any thing more.
Pursuing learning in any field at any stage of life is an ordinary (human)right. An official superior need not and should not sit in value judgment over the course of study or the suitability in pursuing the study. The only concern for the official superior is that the public servant pursuing the higher studies should not, in any way, adversely affect his discharge of official duties. Prima facie, there is not even a whisper to the effect.
Hence the stand of the Department is unreasonable.
ASHISH
(Querist) 28 December 2013
Shri. P. Venu, Sir does that means I can give intimation to my office about appearing for UPSC/MPSC prelims without worrying about further objection (if any) likely to be produced.
I request you to take a look what UPSC says in notification...
"All candidates, whether already in Government Service, Government owned industrial undertakings or other similar
organisations or in private employment should submit their applications direct to the Commission.
Persons already in Government Service, whether in a permanent or temporary capacity or as workcharged employees other
than casual or daily rated employees or those serving under the Public Enterprises are however, required to submit an
undertaking that they have informed in writing their Head of Office/Department that they have applied for the Examination.
Candidates should note that in case a communication is received from their employer by the Commission withholding
permission to the candidates applying for/appearing at the examination, their application will be liable to be
rejected/candidature will be liable to be cancelled."
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 28 December 2013
The extract of the notification you mentions about permission and not the intimation.............................” from their employer..................... withholding
permission to the candidates ................... from their employer”
If you have been informing to your superiors and office then you must be having some diary number, dates and data with you.
Narrating that by a written communication you can make an appeal to record the qualification and grant you the permission.......................
You have also stated about "further objection (if any) likely to be produced." when you intimate your dept.
If you have rules to this regard with you then it is appropriate to go thru it.
Or
You may obtain rules and go thru it.
P. Venu
(Expert) 28 December 2013
Have you given timely (i.e. immediately on submission of application to the UPSC/PSC) intimation, in writing, to the Head of the Office/Department?
Have you, subsequently received any objection or observation, in writing?
ASHISH
(Querist) 28 December 2013
"Have you given timely (i.e. immediately on submission of application to the UPSC/PSC) intimation, in writing, to the Head of the Office/Department?
Have you, subsequently received any objection or observation, in writing?"
@ Shri P. Venu, Dear sir,
I only made oral inquiry with concerned officials and didn't have any writing communication to and fro in this case. Reason is, I put all my efforts in preparing these competitive exam. As my age is approaching to max. eligibility limit,I don't want to jeopardize my chances to appear for year 2014 attempt. The application for PSC is of online only mode and last date is 6th Jan 2014. Application is just click away to be submitted. I paused at column asking "currently employed Yes/No". If my office stands any chances to create hurdle for my application then I will opt for "Not employed" option. Before that I wanted to know the consequences opting either ways. Moreover I wish to take legal route as possible. From some source I came to know that UPSC and other PSC's (CSAT & Prelims)has some privileges for recruitment i.e. no NOC required. I don't know how far it is true. Thanking you Sir.
ASHISH
(Querist) 28 December 2013
@ Shri. P. Venu
No sir, there's no written communication to and fro my office in this case. I only made oral inquiry to concerned officials. The application to PSC is online only mode and just a click away (last date 6th Jan). I stumbled at "currently employed Yes/no." option. The reasons are
1. I put my all efforts preparing civil services and don't want to loose chances to appear for year 2014 attempt.
2. My age also approaching to max. eligibility limit.
I don't want my office to jeopardize my year 2014 attempt. If all legal options exhausts, I may opt for "Not employed" option. Before that I want to know risk factors either ways. From some sources I came to know that UPSC and PSC's have certain privileges for candidate selection that may not need NOC at all. I don't know how far it is true. Your expert guidance is most welcome. Thank you sir.
P. Venu
(Expert) 28 December 2013
It is surprising that a young group 'B' officer of 6 years experience has allowed himself to be overwhelmed by the casual discussions he had with some person in the ministerial office. At least now onward, pl. try to realise that service rules and conditions are not all and not meant to be draconian; they restrict or prohibit only those which are dishonest or harmful. Your ordinary rights are intact unless restricted by CCS(Conduct) Rules.
Your information does not make sense or logic or reason. The simple fact is that you have not given the intimation of your appearing for the UPSC/PSC Examinations. It is a lapse - an irreparable one.
The intimation required to be given is simple of a sentence or two - that you have applied for ----- Examination vide Advt. No. --- dated ----.
I hope that in future you will give immediate intimation. It poses no hazard. But problem can arise if you don't.
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 28 December 2013
Heartfelt appreciations to Expert Shri P. Venu for concluding and conclusions in his last post.
The employee should not depend upon whispers and gossip.
Rules in such dept are clear and easy to understand.
Don't cry on spilled milk.
Have a heart to heart discussion with superior.
They are human beings and have authority to find a way out for you.
They can certainly help you.
Find someone that can help you.
Do not enter wrong/false information in employment application.
The experts are requested to clarify if NOC is in fact required or not as the querist has posted that:
"I came to know that UPSC and PSC's have certain privileges for candidate selection that may not need NOC at all. I don't know how far it is true. "
ASHISH
(Querist) 28 December 2013
Shri P. Venu, Sir, as mentioned in one of my comment above, Last date of application is 6th Jan and I still got time to apply and intimate to my office.
I do agree that I should not rely on mere gossips and casual discussions. But I posted the query after the discussion with administrative officer of personnel section, (deals with the matter), not a layman.
I'm indeed very thankful to you and Mr.Kumar Doab for lifting my spirit and driving this discussion towards fruitful conclusion.
P. Venu
(Expert) 28 December 2013
Pl. give the intimation and prepare for the examination.
Now onward, don't be overdependent on others. Read the Rules an regulations; they could be easily understood.
As a beginning, I suggest, get a copy of the latest (2014) edition of Swamy's Handbook.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 30 December 2013
I repeated Govt instructions as under :-
(1) Joining of Educational Institutions by Government servants outside normal office hours.
It has been brought to the notice of this Ministry on behalf of Government servants belonging to Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes, that certain Ministries/Departments do not permit members of their staff belonging to these communities to join educational institutions outside the normal office hours.
2. As the Ministries are aware, it was proposed in this Ministry’s OM No. 25/27/52-Est., dated the 3rd May, 1952 (not reproduced) to issue general instruction on the subject. The replies received to that OM however revealed that while some Departments found that efficiency was suffering on account of Government servants attending a regular course of study for University Degree even outside office hours, a great majority of the Ministries was able to permit their employees to pursue such studies without detriment to official duties and that no serious problems had been created in most of the Departments by Government servants joining educational institutions. It was, therefore, not considered necessary to issue any specific instructions on the subject. Ordinarily there can be no objection to the pursuit of knowledge by Government servants in their leisure hours. But this must be subject to the condition that such pursuit does in no way detract from their efficiency. Wherever found necessary, the administrative authorities may require that Government servants under their control should take prior permission before joining educational institutions or courses of studies for University Degrees as the joining of educational institutions involves advance commitment about attendance at specific hours and absence from duty during periods of examinations. Ordinarily, permission is to be granted but with a view to summarily dealing with cases where it is noticed that the Government servant has been neglecting his duties for the sake of his studies, a condition may be attached saying that the permission may be withdrawn at any moment without assigning any reason. This will, of course, be without prejudice to any other departmental action being taken where mere withdrawal of the permission is not considered adequate..
3. Government servants belonging to the Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes may be allowed to take full advantage of the educational facilities subject to the policy stated above.
4. These instructions have been issued with the concurrence of the Comptroller and Auditor General in so far as persons serving under him are concerned.
[MHA OM No. 130/54-Ests.(A), dated 26.02.1955.]
THEREFORE PERMISSION WAS NEEDED and I politely differ with view of Mr Jaggarao.
malipeddi jaggarao
(Expert) 30 December 2013
Mr.Sudhir Kumarji
The Government Instructions quoted above are to help furtherance of education but not to create hurdles. These provisions are for regular studies out of office hours.
Please look into the (1) above:
"Joining of Educational Institutions by Government servants outside normal office hours."
The queriest has not joined for any regular study. He has furthered his education by private study. In no case permission is required as it will not hinder his routine normal work relating to the job. At the same time, it is his choice either to further his studies in the same line or in a separate line. It is his right.
Hence I still stick to my advice.
P. Venu
(Expert) 30 December 2013
The circular in question was issued far back in 1955 (almost 60 years back) when Distance Education was unknown.
Moreover, this is only an administrative instruction, not a Statutory Rule. The emphasis therein is on efficiency, not anything else. Tone and tenor of the OM is that denying permission should be an exception, not the rule - that too, on pronounced grounds of adverse effects on efficiency.
ASHISH
(Querist) 30 December 2013
Dear sirs, I belongs to SC category moreover degree earned is from IGNOU distance learning mode. I never applied or taken any leave for the purpose of said education.
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 30 December 2013
Mr. Sudhir Kumar has provided rules that state...................
2. “Ordinarily, permission is to be granted but with a view to summarily dealing with cases where it is noticed that the Government servant has been neglecting his duties for the sake of his studies, a condition may be attached saying that the permission may be withdrawn at any moment without assigning any reason.”
3. Government servants belonging to the Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes may be allowed to take full advantage of the educational facilities subject to the policy stated above.
You have posted in your last post that................................
“I belongs to SC category moreover degree earned is from IGNOU distance learning mode. I never applied or taken any leave for the purpose of said education.”
This should put you at ease.
A few points emerge from this interesting discussion:
---The rules as on date and as on date of taking admission in distance learning course and passing it out should be obtained. The rules in this regard should be looked into.
If the employee has all the rules in his possession he can put forward his case and counter the stance of authority in much better way.
If the rules are silent it may leave space for administrative decision or even intrusion.
However you have studied by distance learning mode and have never applied or taken any leave for the purpose of said education. Therefore you have never violated the provisions in the rules provided by Mr. Sudhir Kumar.
Therefore the administrative intrusion may not go against you.
---Since it is a distance learning course the regular classes are not to be attended.
All said and done the exams is already cleared by the employee and probably there has been no comment on compromise with duty/duty hours during the tenure of the course.
Therefore the querist may attempt to take his superiors/stake holders into confidence and obtain permission.
The employee should always acquire and apply rapport, goodwill and exceptional levels of persuasion, persistence, negotiations, reasoning skills.
If the administration takes a pragmatic view of the situation it should have no hesitation to grant permission.
It should relieve the employee that has served the office at a positive note.
Time available with employee is short and he should conclude the matter without any adverse affect on him.
The querist is to appear in exam to be conducted by MPSC.
It shall be pertinent to look into the rules quoted by MPSC.
The querist has quoted extracts from notification of UPSC................................” I request you to take a look what UPSC says in notification... ........................................... Candidates should note that in case a communication is received from their employer by the Commission withholding permission to the candidates applying for/appearing at the examination, their application will be liable to be rejected/candidature will be liable to be cancelled."
The extract of the notification posted by querist mentions about permission and not the intimation.......................
Does MPSC notification also states same.............................as that of UPSC......
The experts are requested to clarify if NOC is in fact required or not as the querist has posted that:
"I came to know that UPSC and PSC's have certain privileges for candidate selection that may not need NOC at all. I don't know how far it is true. "
If it is true and MPSC follows UPSC then what is the issue?
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 30 December 2013
even for distance educationa Govt servnt needs permission for joining further studies. This permission is granted only if it is distance education or it is beyond office hours. WIthin office hours no permission is given unless the course and candidates is qualified for study leave.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 30 December 2013
Since querist has completed the course without detrimental to office work (otherwise action would have been taken against him) he can he can ask for a lenient treatment and seek ex-post factor permission.
In any case the onus is on the deptt to send objection to UPSC within finite time.
ASHISH
(Querist) 30 December 2013
@Kumar Doab, Sir. MPSC notification is in Marathi (no eng version) states that .."Candidates already in govt service should apply online to commission. At the same time they have to intimate their head of office about post/exam applied for,Advt no,last date of application. And also request their head of office to intimate commission in case of any objection, within 30 days of last date of application. Whereas no communication to commission is required in case of no objection."
Dear sir , to appear for preliminary exam of UPSC/MPSC, qualifying education i.e. any degree, is not required. Whereas candidate must poses it at the time of filling Mains exam form in case he clears prelims.
Dr J C Vashista
(Expert) 31 December 2013
Intimate your department regarding qualification acquired and your intension to take UPSC exam.
No adverse administrative action shall be taken against you.
You are well in time, go ahead.
Best of luck.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 31 December 2013
agreeing with Dr Vashishta I will add that you have no option to seek ex-parte regularization of permission.
Your deptt has no option but to raise objection (if they want) within time stipulated by the Commission.
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 31 December 2013
The matter has been made crystal clear in this interesting discussion by the learned experts.
Proceed further.
ASHISH
(Querist) 31 December 2013
Thanks all for the valuable inputs.
At present, my request to record degree is declined. Also if I intimate my office now about application to MPSC, they may raise objection (as per discussion with administrative officer who entertain with the matter). The reason for objection will be "not qualified to meet eligibility criteria."
While there's no degree certificate required to write preliminary exam, candidate awaiting for result can attempt it. In this situation whether the reason stated by my office disqualify my candidature? If my office cannot justify its objection for 45 days from the date of application, it taken as permission granted in case of upsc (ref. Swamy's handbook).
Experts are requested to throw light on above. Thanking you.
Guest
(Expert) 31 December 2013
When you don't submit a copy of your degree to your office to add your qualification in your service record, how you can expect the authorities to recognize your degree qualification?
You could better have got your degree added in your service record, rather than wasting your time in mere discussions over here. Must do that now. At the most they can issue to a minor penalty charge sheet or even issue you a warning letter to be careful in future for not getting prior permission to take admission for the course, as you have not committed a heinous crime in enhancing your qualification.
If the authorities hve delined your request to add your qualification on submission of copy of degree with your request, they don't have any such discretion to deny addition of your qualification. In that case you can file a writ against the decision in CAT/Court, as the case may be.
P. Venu
(Expert) 31 December 2013
I am afraid matter is confused.
Firstly, submitting the application. Submit it within the closing date.
Secondly, intimating the Dept. of the application for the post/examination submitted to the UPSC/PSC. You are required to give intimation.
Thirdly, the Dept's action on the intimation given by the official. Department can withhold permission - but on legitimate ground. This could only be in public interest arising out of the possibility of the official being got selected and leaving the Dept. Public interest would be adversely affected if the Department had given extensive training at public expense and the official is under the obligation to serve the Dept. for a specified period.
Certainly, it is not for the Dept. to scrutinize the eligibility of the official for the post/Examination he has applied for. UPSC/PSC is eminently competent to verify this aspect.
The extant instructions require the Dept. to inform of their objection, if any, within period of 45 days of closing date. If not, permission is presumed. Generally such intimations are just filed as a matter of routine.
Thirdly, addition of qualification in the Service record. This is not an material issue in the present context of the intimation given of the Dept. of the application submitted to the UPSC/PSC and the action of the Dept. thereon.
Thus you are unnecessarily allowing yourself to be threatened by imaginary shadows.
ASHISH
(Querist) 01 January 2014
@Sri. P Venu Sir, Thanks a lot.You precisely caught my doubts and anhillated them. Surely I will apply and intimate in time. Meanwhile I will pursue my office to record my degree. But I'm not clear what happens in later stage if they deny.
Thanks again.
I wish happy new year to all members.
Dr J C Vashista
(Expert) 01 January 2014
I wish happy new year to all members and visitors
(Expert) 28 December 2013
