Departmental promotional committee
Ghouse Mohiddin
(Querist) 17 August 2013
This query is : Resolved
Sir
Last week I asked the Query regarding the
my friend issue persuading the higher education through the distance education from parental university with out obtaining
the Permission of higher authorities. Some of the expert said that permission is must
for persuading the higher education even it is distance education. I just want to know is there any Government order which
mention requirement of permission even for
higher education through distance mode.
Further my friend who ranked 1st in the DPC list has been not called for the interview for the promotion for higher posts. only lower ranked candidates were called over telephone and interview was held at Head Quarter. After 2-3 days when my friend got the information from the other sources and called the concerned department they told that as your higher qualification has not considered by the authorities hence you are not eligible for the post.
But my question is
1.When they prepared the DPC seniority list how they prepared the list depending on the existing qualification for the prescribed post.
2.when the Promotion notification was published they have not mentioned any educational qualification required for the post. they just mentioned the experience in particular cadre which was clearly fulfilled by my friend.
Please advice and give clear picture
of DPC promotions.
Regards
Ghouse
P. Venu
(Expert) 18 August 2013
The University's action is patently illegal and mala fide.
Guest
(Expert) 18 August 2013
Mr. Venu,
I wonder on your opinion, "The University's action is patently illegal and mala fide." I did not expect such a reply based on unverified facts from a Gazetted Government Officer.
The following questions arise in my mind on your point blank reply against the employer of the friend of Mr. Ghouse:
1) Are you sure that Mr. Ghouse would have stated the full facts of the case on behalf of his friend?
2) Are you sure that his friend would have taken due permission of the competent authority for pursuing his higher studies, as per the conduct rules of the university?
3) Are you sure that the employer was not required to take adverse note of misconduct on behalf of his friend for not seeking due permission under the prescribed conduct rules?
4) Are you sure that the employer was obliged to take for granted automatically what his employee commits, ignore his misconduct and take on record whatever employee presents before satisfying himself about the work and conduct of his employee?
5) Are you sure that the university's recruitment rules would have been totally silent about the prescription of the minimum requirement of qualification of employees for promotion to the next post?
6) Are you sure that his friend would have been able to attain the requisite qualification before the due date of consideration of cases for empanelment for promotion, as put up to the DPC?
Rajendra K Goyal
(Expert) 18 August 2013
You may get the information in this regard form University through RTI.
P. Venu
(Expert) 18 August 2013
Dear Shri Dhingra,
I am grateful for the interesting observations made on my opinion. The opinion is not point blank, but in continuation to my opinions in respect of the other two queries from Mr.Ghouse.
In respect of the first query (http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/experts/Refusal-of-personal-dept-to-enter-higher-qualification-in-service-record-392711.asp#.UhCb6NIzOpo)I have opined:
"The service rule that an employee should take prior permission for pursuing higher studies had come into force at a time when distance education was unknown. There is no statutory prohibition under the relevant Conduct rules, but there are administrative instructions requiring obtaining of prior permission. Thus obtaining of permission is not mandatory, but only directory. Principle involved is that the employee should not engage himself in any activity which distracts his full devotion to duty. It is a moot question whether these administrative instructions are relevant for distance education.
"Even assuming that the employee should have sought prior permission, it only renders the employee liable for departmental action. It is not open the employer/ Government refuse to take note of the higher qualification earned by the employee. Such an action is unreasonable and mala fide."
I have given following opinions to the second query (http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/experts/modify_message.asp?entry_id=447638):
"Acquiring higher qualification is a fact. The University may call for explanation for alleged lapse in not taking prior permission, but that is not a justification for not recording the higher qualification in the records.
"The objective in the requirement for obtaining prior permission to ensure the devotion of duty of the employee and not because pursuing further studies is an impropriety."
I have given all these opinions today. Hence I humbly submit that:
1, 5 & 6) I could not discern any inconsistency or contradiction in the facts stated by Mr.Ghouse and hence could be taken to be true.
2)Taking prior permission is not a statutory rule, but an administrative instruction incidental to the rule that an employee shall, at all times, maintain devotion to duty. The instruction had been originally issued long past when distance education was unknown.
3)Act of the employee pursuing higher education, per se, is not a misconduct. It entails a misconduct when the devotion to duty is compromised or distracted.
4) The employer need not take an offence if the pursuing of higher studies had not distracted his devotion to duty or otherwise compromised his performance. This is a question of fact, and the Confidential Report of the employee would provide direct answer. Of course, the employer can make independent inquiry as to the genuineness and competence of the record: but, such verification has no relation to the question of prior permission to join the higher studies.
Incidentally, I have since retired from service.
Guest
(Expert) 18 August 2013
Mr. Venu,
Thanks for your clarification. However, except pointing out that your views and my views are just like north plole and south pole going to entirely on opposite directions. The question is not of distance education. The question is about observance of employees conduct and discipline rules in an organisation.
Anyway, mere expressing your views against the university's action, "the University's action is patently illegal and mala fide" may not serve the purpose of solution sought by Mr. Ghouse.
So, what solution do you propose for his friend, as the university authorities are not supposed to accept either your views, or my views, if I also express my views in his favour. How he should convince his authorities that they are quite wrong in their bid to enforce the conduct and disciplines rules within the organisation and their action is patently illegal and mala fide?
Ghouse Mohiddin
(Querist) 18 August 2013
Sir
Thanks for the suggestions/discussions from Venu Sir and Dhingra Sir.
I would like to add that The central civil services conduct rules 1964 clearly mention that the very reason for the prior permission was raised because
" while some Departments found that efficiency was suffering on account of Government servants attending a regular course of study for University Degree even outside office hours" and it will have advance commitment about attendance at specific hours and absence from duty during periods of examinations and distract from the efficiency during office hours.
I want the solution for the problem raised for getting the higher qualification with out prior approval and as suggested by the Dhingra sir it will not serve the purpose
if solutions was not found.
I will quite agree by the Venu sir views that only confidential reports and records will speak about my friends performance at the office
I will still remember in 2011 Dhingra Sir
answering a query suggested to ask for pardon and post facto approval with the employer which was duly informed to my friend unfortunately they have called for the explanation.
We will post our Problemsfor solutions and not for the further problems. I have court orders where relief has been given by the courts in these cases.
We are laymen who will look to the experts
as our saviours before we will move to the courts for necessary relief.
Ghouse Mohiddin
(Querist) 18 August 2013
Sir
Further I had forgotten to add that my friends Application for higher studies was enrouted through the proper channel to the concerned department and leave was duly taken mentioning that appearing for the examination. No where my friend try to supress the facts with the university authorities.
But fact that neither the concerned department who accepted the application for higher studies informed my friend or suggested to take prior administrative approval for the higher studies nor the personal dept has raised the query while sanctioning the leave.
Now tell me please who is at the fault
when my friend has asked for the pardon for the procedural lapse, and mistake was unintentional.But University officials are not accepting it and ask for the explanation.
Regards
Ghouse
P. Venu
(Expert) 18 August 2013
The extract cited by Mr.Ghouse is not a Rule (notified under Article 309 of the Constitution), but Government of India Decision No. (4) under Rule 3 of the CCS(Conduct) Rules, 1964. Rule 3, inter alia, provides that every Government servant shall at all times devotion to duty and also that every Government servant holding a supervisory post shall take all possible steps to ensure the devotion to duty of the employees in his control and authority.
Incidentally, the instruction had been issued long back on 26th February 1955 clarifying the earlier instructions dated 3rd May 1952.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 27 August 2013
He has actually messed up the facts in different threads leaving the experts to play hide and seek:-
http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/experts/permission-for-higher-studies-with-out-prior-permission-415351.asp#.UhyOnX_Qzmk
http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/experts/Refusal-of-Personal-Dept-to-enter-Higher-qualification-in-Service-Record-392711.asp#.UhyOon_Qzmk
http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/experts/Departmental-Promotional-Committee-416561.asp#.UhyOmH_Qzmk
He should come with full facts in one query
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 27 August 2013
I am soryy to refer to the following view of Mr Venu
"The extract cited by Mr.Ghouse is not a Rule (notified under Article 309 of the Constitution), but Government of India Decision No. (4) under Rule 3 of the CCS(Conduct) Rules, 1964. Rule 3, inter alia, provides that every Government servant shall at all times devotion to duty and also that every Government servant holding a supervisory post shall take all possible steps to ensure the devotion to duty of the employees in his control and authority.
Incidentally, the instruction had been issued long back on 26th February 1955 clarifying the earlier instructions dated 3rd May 1952."
Following instruction of Govt is also a part of devotion to duty and disciplinary actin can be initiated of violation of the same.
He is not in a position to annoy authorities.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 27 August 2013
Now putting a cap on the scattered facts. The querist has to understgand :-
(i) He was required to seek permission of the competent authority before pursuint higher studies.
(ii) This permission was needed even if the course was from the same university.
(iii) This permission was needed even if the course was of distance education.
(iv) This permission was liable to be withdrawn if the official duties fuffer.
(v) This permission was not taken by him.
(vi) This permission cannot be presumed if the application is forwarfedd by deptt andif leave is allowed to participate in classes or examination.
(vii) This permission cannot be compelled upon the employer.
(viii) This permission can be given ex-parte.
(ix) He has completed this course without hindetance to public duty as he has not stated of any complaint of controlling officers. (unless he is hinding facts).
(x) In the absence of this permission there can be disciplinary action against him
(xi) Without this permission his qualification will not be added in service book or seniority list and he will not be considered fro any promotion for which this qualification is mandatory.
(xii) Without this permission as his qualification will not be added in service book no application for deputation or employment to any post will beforwarded for any post for which this qualification is mandatory.
(xiii) Promotion cannot be denied to any post on which this qualification is not mandatory.
(xiv) If facing a disciplinary action any type of promotion/deputation/confirmation can be denied.
So he has to be polite (not provocative) with the authorities and get ex-post facto permission.
Ghouse Mohiddin
(Querist) 27 August 2013
Sudhir Sir
There is nothing hide and seek in my questions regarding my friend problem
1) He is completed the higher studies through the distance education from the parental university without prior permission
2) Application was duly forwarded through the department to the distance education department of the university and the same was accepted and there is no objection from
the Department for not taking permission.
3) No leave or any other benefits has been availed to attend the classes
4) Applied leave to attend the examination which was duly approved by the university authorities
5) Sent the degree certificate for updating in CR.
6) University Authorities refuse to enter
the same
7) Forwarded the Apology letter in polite way for procedural lapse and request for post facto approval.
8) University authorities once again refused to enter it asked for the explanation.
These are the series in which the incidents
happened and I requested to guide my friend what best he can do and we clearly
know about the "Disciplinary action" as stated by many experts. we need the solution for this problem and not what authorities will do.
I have some questions which were not answered clearly by the experts who are
giving the END picture.
1.I asked for any specific rule or reference where most of the lawyers referring to take permission even for the distance education required.
"This permission was needed even if the course was of distance education"
2.How the DPC is prepared and my friend is topped the list when University is known
that he does not possess the required qualification for the post.
3.Is it possible to top the DPC list when any adverse remarks or complaints recorded in the CR of my friend.
4.Whether University authorities will blindly sanction the leaves of the employees when the reason was connected with its own department.
As my friend has asked for apology (Politely) and authorities refused to accept.
In this connection I had requested for the advise but most of them are giving the picture of failure of my friend to seek permission and its results which was known to us after this incident and not the proper advise which was the need of the hour.
Regards
Ghouse
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 28 August 2013
1.I asked for any specific rule or reference where most of the lawyers referring to take permission even for the distance education required.
"This permission was needed even if the course was of distance education"
Ans : It is you who have decided to scatter the facts on several threads. You are either playing hide and seek or want to take test of experts
Rule position has be elaborated on other thread at http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/experts/permission-for-higher-studies-with-out-prior-permission-415351.asp#.Uh2EsH_Qzmk
Please read it. Rules do not differentiate between regular course / distance education or even evening or online course.
2.How the DPC is prepared and my friend is topped the list when University is known
that he does not possess the required qualification for the post.
Ans : It is you who have decided to scatter the facts on several threads. You are either playing hide and seek or want to take test of experts
If he was erroneously considered by DPC and even if he was on top of select list or even if he was actually promoted he can still be brought down if the necessary qualification is not entered in the service book.
At the most you can request for disciplinary action against clerical staff who failed to inform facts to the DPC. Your grievance is still not settled.
3.Is it possible to top the DPC list when any adverse remarks or complaints recorded in the CR of my friend.
Ans : It is you who have decided to scatter the facts on several threads. You are either playing hide and seek or want to take test of experts.
So far you have not indicated any adverse remark in ACR. It is possible to top the DPC when DPC is kept unaware of the ineligibility.
Just consider, if you top IAS exam (each candidate appears subject to being found eligible) would he be allowed to join if he is just matriculate.
4.Whether University authorities will blindly sanction the leaves of the employees when the reason was connected with its own department.
Ans : It is you who have decided to scatter the facts on several threads. You are either playing hide and seek or want to take test of experts.
Leave sanctioning authority and the authority competent to grant permission for higher studies are not the same. Better check with university.
Sanction of leave does not directly amount to granting permission or guatanee that qualification can be added.
As my friend has asked for apology (Politely) and authorities refused to accept.
Ans : You friend has to see that if such ex-post facto permission has been granted to anyone else.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 28 August 2013
You commented
"In this connection I had requested for the advise but most of them are giving the picture of failure of my friend to seek permission and its results which was known to us after this incident and not the proper advise which was the need of the hour."
THIS IS A FREE LEGAL ADVISE FORUM WHEREIN THE EXPERTS GIVE FREE AND CHARITABLE ADVISE SPENDING THEIR OWN TIME, FAMILY COMFORT, NET CONNECTION, ELECTRICITY ETC.
It is better your friends pays an advocate the get proper advise.
Ghouse Mohiddin
(Querist) 28 August 2013
Sudhir Sir
I have posted the queries when and how it was accrued and there is no hide and seek in information put on the query.
As I stated earlier we are the laymen who will come to the free advise as this is a charitable advise and Thanks for the advise and Thanks for spending your precious time.
sorry for the inconvenience caused by me.
Regards
Ghouse
