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Pvt_RajKing (Private)     26 November 2011

Integrity of lawyers

Dear Members,

As a common man I have used the services of many lawyers in the last 5+ years and found few things that is consistent among most of them:

1. Vast majority of them is keen on taking the full fees at the beginning itself even though the proceedings hasn't even began.

2. None of them provide receipts for the payments (very few exceptions here)

3. Once they receive the payment then the interest level in the case is goes down to zero and they don't want you (the client) anymore... (very few exceptions here)

4. Once they are paid in full, many of the lawyers just find a way to force the client to find another lawyer (since they already got their payment)... obviously the client has no way of getting his money back!!

5. Majority of the lawyers community is not active in learning and don't keep themselves up to date. On top of that, they don't like if the client points out certain aspects... for example, I recently was trying to appeal against the return of the plaint and clearly told my lawyer (who is pretty decent lawyer & senior) if he fails then immeidate make a mention of file an I.A to transfer (not return) the same to the right court under Ord 7 Rule 10B. But he wasn't paying attention and he wasn't listening at all until after two weeks of me telling him the same... and after that he is telling what I told him 6 months ago and have been telling for the lat weeks as well!! You will not believe how many lawyers don't know the difference between return and transfer.

Similarly, I couldn't believe as to how many, including many judges at the lower court, don't know what the true meaning of "cause of action" is. Almost everyone assumes that it is a root cause of the suit, i.e an atmic event that triggered the institution of suit...This is absolutely wrong and there are thousands of judgements that have provided clarity and yet there are so many judges/lawyers who still think it is a just a root cause event.

In anycase, the reason for this posting is to get your opinion on the first 4 items that goes to the integrity of the profession. I know couple of lawyers in this forum who have done all of the above in my case and as well as in some cases of friends to which I referred these lawyers..I consider their actions pure cheating...but I would like to hear your views..

What can the client do to protect themselves against the above (especially the items 1 to 4)?



Learning

 22 Replies

Agneepath (Software Engineer)     26 November 2011

Very true. Everyone's experience is exactly the same. Lawyers just want to suck your money. NONE of them is honest. The problem is, even if you have wonderful and TRUE evidences and proofs for your case, they will ask for money for everyone from PP, APP etc. etc. and if you are gullible enough, money for the 'judge' himself - even if they didn't give any money to any of them. 

Moreover, I completely agree to you that none of them wants to learn as well. And when you point out about something they didn't know, they will never agree to it for first (even if they know from inside that they were completely unaware of this thing) - they will mostly say "Are aisa nahi hota hai" (no, things don't work like this) - and if they are rude, they will say "humko kaanoon mat sikhao" ... the thing is, they REALLY DO should learn more kaanoon rather then just 'jugaad' or 'setting' which they do. 

If you suggest something else, they'll say, "Aisa hi hai to aap apna case khud hi lad lo" ... 

The real thing is, there is actually no other way to 'protect' yourself from these things than what the lawyer suggested above "apna case khud lad lo" -  many people really do that actually. I am learning law (taking time out of my software job), so that I can fight my false 498a case, at least after a few years when I understand the system well enough. 

DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g (POWER OF DEFENSE IS IMMENSE )     26 November 2011

well I have different expereince the moment any client gets some relief he /she just forgets to honor commitments and even becomes evasive. Goes to others for advice and when the matter gets serious returns . In cases when the case get spoiled start blaming the legal fretanity.

DISHA D. SHAH (lawyer)     26 November 2011

absoutly right

Agneepath (Software Engineer)     26 November 2011

What do you have to say about almost none of the 'legal fraternity' people giving receipts of what they charge? Clearly Tax Evasion. None of the advocates in US or other developed countries do such things, I have seen this only in India. That's why we are not developing and they are. Legal rakshaks are the main bhakshaks (but not as bad as the policemen, who are the biggest criminals in the country) :) 

As they become relaxed when they get the whole amount in the beginning, get merged with the lawyer of opposite party, to get more money. Sometimes you have to give them greed saying "You take the whole amount you asked, but I'll give you some thousands more when we win the case" So that they at least have some 'bonus' to work hard for. When you say this, ALL of them would show an angry expression saying "do you think we are greedy and dishonest? Don't you trust us?". But don't get scared about that. They will shamelessly ask for that extra money when you win, even if they showed angry face at that time, which if you win you will happily give. 

No solution to this again. How many lawyers you would search and for how long for an honest one who gives receipts? One has to find one soon to fight his case afterall. 

Pvt_RajKing (Private)     26 November 2011

Originally posted by :JSDN
"
well I have different expereince the moment any client gets some relief he /she just forgets to honor commitments and even becomes evasive. Goes to others for advice and when the matter gets serious returns . In cases when the case get spoiled start blaming the legal fretanity.
"

 

Dear JSDN,

Your experience is quite possible and I am sure you need to protect against that. One way to do that would be to have some sort of guarantee with milestones (like undated check along with a basic agreement as to when the check is due etc). But what I have articulated is mostly the default practice hurting every clients. The question is how can both parties protect each other? For example, I found a small law firm in Chennai with whom I work on public interest litigations.. I love the way they interact with me (overall).. I give them the draft and they read and modify quickly to make court/judges compliant and I give them 1/3rd of the fee for the drafting, 1/3rd upon notices sent and 1/3rd upon final arguments... I have similar arrangements with another lawyer in Madurai High Court.. those are only two people that I managed to work this out...

I am looking for members to propose ideas as to how we can protect each other so that no one is at the mercy of the other. I am sure there are senior lawyers on this forum who could shed some lights...

Pvt_RajKing (Private)     26 November 2011

Also,let us not forget that lawyering is consiered a noble service!!!! Perhaps the problem lies that most lawyer take up the job for pure revenue purposes and NOT service.. may be it is a systemic problem since anyone with the law degree is allowed to practice... instead may be they should be allowed to practice only if they have other means of supporting yourself financially and/or encourage senior citizens to get into this practice!!!

Balaji Bakthavathsal (+919444448455)     07 December 2011

I fully agree with Mr. Pvt_Rajking and Agneepath. I too had the bitter experience of dealing with the lawyers and my queries with this LCI will narrate my woes. I would have met and dealt with about a dozen lawyers for different cases and almost all of them truly followed as Mr. Pvt-Rajking pointed out the points at his comment. Infact, in this very same forum I brought out the misconduct of a lawyer who represented three different parties who are totally strangers and not related to each other on one and the same property. I filed a complaint with the Bar council and though more than one and half year passed No action has been initiated by the Bar Council of Tamil Nadu. Whatever I wanted to say, Mr. Pvt_Rajking has told before me. But I must admit that one of the lawyer who is a meber of this forum came forward to give me a receipt for the fees accepted by me but I could not afford the fees he demaded and so I could not contact him. However, I feel that he is a sincere and dedicated lawyer and that is why I sought his advice/guidance.

Pvt_RajKing (Private)     08 December 2011

As always, there are lawyers who are good BUT the point they are VERY few.

Like doctors, the lawyers also seem to have problem in recognizing the changing needs of educated clients. Typically the doctors in India have no respect for patients.. in the last few years I have had quite a few interactions with few doctors and ended up advising them to take notice of the changing cleints' stature and start respecting their time.. I recall an appointment I had with a specialist doctor at Appollo Hospital and she was running late. I waited there for 15 min past my appointment time and yet the doctor was with another patient and is happily chit chatting and there was no information either from the doctor or the help there as to how long it will be before the doctor could see me (as there were few more people ahead of me). I waitied another 15 min and lefft the place informing the hospital manager of how bad I felt about their service.... I asked the manager to also get the doctor on the call and told the doctor exactly how I felt and why she should pay attention to the time and effectively manage her client interactions and keep patients informed etc...

But there are many dental and opthamologists who are doing extremently well and they know how to interact with educated patients and I have been very happy with few of them in Hyderabad... Just because someone is an exeptional doctor doesn't mean your patient is worthy of nothing.. there are millions of patients who are more educated than a good doctor and deserve to be treated with the same self respect and dignity that the doctors themselves expect from others...

Anyways, I think it is high time that both the advocate fraternity as well as the Courts of this nation take notice of the inadequacy of their policy and procedures in 21st century. I do beleive one of the worst offenders of self respect and dignity of citizens are the court themselves as they have no respect whatsoever for the litigant public... it is a clear human rights violations (yes I can prove this).... you can see them (court admin) in the procedure they follow, the way they treat the litigant citizens at the court hall, the way they treat party in persons etc...

I wish there is a way we can institute PIL at the Human Rights commission against the procedures followed by the courts as it is against the human rights (in addition to it being illogicall in most cases).. this should be possible since the procedures are administrative in nature and thus the Human Rights Commission may have the jurisidiction... [Note: there is a reason why no educated or well informed people want to approach the court under normal circumstances]


Thanks

Raj

DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g (POWER OF DEFENSE IS IMMENSE )     08 December 2011

Please do not compare with US, there credit card system is prevalant so the moment work is done the account is debited. morever fees are many many multiples more.

Pvt_RajKing (Private)     08 December 2011

Originally posted by :JSDN
"
Please do not compare with US, there credit card system is prevalant so the moment work is done the account is debited. morever fees are many many multiples more.
"

Dear JSDN,

I am not comparing with anyone. I am only talking about cultural re-orientation required so that people's self respect and dignity are recognized by these service providers... I do not think it is a fees issue... an appollo doctor charges a lot (as per cost of living in India) for 10 min consultation and so do most senior lawyers in India...

Let me tell you how the court's administration robs people of their dignity:

- A judge reserves an order but doesn't give a date for pronouncement. U r expected to keep visiting them periodically to figure out if a judgments has been pronounced (which they never do but do it in chambers and that is absolutely illegal per SC)

- Most judges never wanted to hear from parties

- In All criminal cases the accused is expected to be present even though he is not doing anything for the procedings... I believe the complainaint is also expected to be present...

- In criminal court they mostly do not allow citizens to have a seat there while they let lawyers go in and out even if they have no cases with that court. The citiznes are asked to wait outside (in sun in many cases) as if they are some low life... I can understand that they cannot provide seating for all but atleast provide 10-20 seats so that the parties in proceedings can also sit there and watch/participate in the proceedings..

- No court in this country provides the time slot at which your case will be heard.. One is expected to be at the Court at10:30AM and wait for your turn. I am sure it is not hard to fix this... A simple system of classification of cases and slotted timings and passover of matters that takes more than the slotted time is all that is needed to solve this problem, which will alow listing of cases on an hourly basis... In many countries they list the cases for every 15 min slot...

So, one need not live in US or other countries to expect these.. the solution for these problems are not expensive either.. They are not being solved because the system & people in that system inherently don't respect people and people's time...that is my humble opinion....but it is a pure & gross violation of Human Rights..

DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g (POWER OF DEFENSE IS IMMENSE )     08 December 2011

All these problems are handled by expereince advocates for the advantage of the client. But you do not want to pay his expanses and fees which will natuarlly be more. So you choose a novice and these problems occur.

Agneepath (Software Engineer)     08 December 2011

Who says we don't want to hire a good or experienced lawyer - and not pay his expenses and fees. But since you clearly avoided this question in the past, I ask again. WHICH experienced lawyer will give you a receipt of what he is charging? You may charge 5 lac Rupees, but don't want to give receipt of any of them. Why? Please answer honestly. And inspite of answering this, you are blaming clients only! 

Not only this, even for getting a certified copy of orders etc., they charge whatever they feel like! Amazing - even if you pay them more than 1 lac rupees for what should have taken Rs. 50,000/- otherwise, they still want to loot your Rs. 1,000/- or 1500/- every now and then for so silly reasons. 

DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g (POWER OF DEFENSE IS IMMENSE )     08 December 2011

you want good advocate but do not want to pay  than create minor minor hassales.So if there is no trust no body can help you. The best way is you contest your own case and there is no bar for it.

zimmerzapper (student)     10 December 2011

Originally posted by :JSDN
" Please do not compare with US, there credit card system is prevalant so the moment work is done the account is debited. morever fees are many many multiples more. "

 

fees is proportional to the cost of living, so it doesn't matter because what lawyers here charge for a similar case will comparable. credit card system also acts as proof. would lawyers in india be willing accept payment through credit cards?




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