Upgrad LLM

is anna's win against democracy?

Director Bangalore chapter

The fast undertaken by Shri Anna Hazare has ended with Government agreeing to the demand of the veteran leader. What is worrying me is the following points.

   the old Lokpal bill was scuttlled by corrupt politicians. OK. But it was prepared by a politician who was the law Minister at that time Shri Shanthi Bushan. Now he is the committee selected by Shri Anna Hazare along with his son Shri Prashant Bhushan.The whole exercise of fast and the support given by some individuals, with media chorus and internet savy crowd supporitng the anti corruption crusade is OK. But these are the same guys who donot vote. they just donot like to stand in Q and vote.

   Now this whole exervcise has become an exercise which is carried out  outside of Parliament. Is it healthy?

Now the corrupt karunanidhi and his family are in trial in tamilnadu along with corrupt Raja.the whole lot could have gone to Tamilnadu and educated the voters there about corruption. But this is done outside of parliament is something which has setup a very bad precedent especially as the English media which are controlled by western interests played a significant role in this exercise. In a way only politicians are shown in bad light while there are also real culprits who are also corrupt  like the judiciary (through posteponement of cases), corrupt babus and may be even corrupt Generals.

   A very bad precedent for Democracy however flawed it may be in India


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Director

You may right. however at least people got that rights to fight. Now will be the next step to take care of that is not corrupted. That can be administrative corruption which will hopefully go with timebeing and people's awareness.

 
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Advocates & Mediators.

It may be true to certain extent but when elected members of peoples house

are not listening to the grievences and not living to the expectations

of voters some time a agitation may be necessary to correct

either by judiciary or by peoples aspirations or by agitations when it is aimed for

the benefit of the Society and not for any particular section.

This incedent only demonstrates that there is a change in approach of politicians

required and it is not a casual approach anymore. 

 
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[See my Blog for NSSD-UOI] Founder - President Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Democratic Rights Forum (DRF) (Foundation for Social Justice and Constitutional Awareness for Trial of Public Service) email at drf.india@gmail.com - Twitter:democrats_forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_Sy8S1vxEM

 

http://ambedkarism.wordpress.com/category/poona-pact/

 

Statement by Dr.B.R.Ambedkar on Gandhi’s Fast March 7, 2011

Posted by moderator2 in Poona Pact.
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(Statement on Mr.Gandhi’s attitude at the Round Table Conference towards the untouchables and their demand for Constitutional Safeguards, 19th September 1932.)

I need hardly say that I was astounded to read the correspondence between Mahatma Gandhi, Sir Samuel Hoare and the Prime Minister, which was published recently in the Papers, in which he has expressed his determination to starve himself unto death till the British Government of its own accord or under pressure of public opinion revise their opinion and withdraw their scheme of communal representation for the Depressed Classes. The unenviable position, in which I have been placed by the Mahatma’s vow of self-immolation, can easily be imagined.

It passes my comprehension why Mr. Gandhi should stake his life on an issue arising out of the communal question which he, at the Round Table Conference, said was one of a comparatively small importance. Indeed, to adopt the language of those of Mr. Gandhi’s way of thinking, the communal question was only an appendix to the book of India’s constitution and not the main chapter. It would have been justifiable, if Mr.Gandhi had resorted to this extreme step for obtaining independence for the country on which he was so insistent all through the R.T.C. debates. It is also a painful surprise that Mr.Gandhi should single out special representation for the Depressed Classes in the Communal Award as an excuse for his self-immolation. Separate electorates are granted not only to the Depressed Classes, but to the Indian Christians, Anglo-Indians, Europeans, as well as the Mohammedans and the Sikhs. Also separate Electorates are granted to landlords, labourers and traders. Mr. Gandhi had declared his opposition to the special representation of every other class and creed except the Mohamedans and the Sikhs. All the same, Mr. Gandhi chooses to let everybody else except the Depressed Classes retain the special electorates given to them.

The fears expressed by Mr.Gandhi about the consequences of the arrangements for the representation of the Depressed Classes are, in my opinion, purely imaginary. If the nation is not going to be split up by separate electorates to the Mohamedans and the Sikhs, the Hindu society cannot be said to be split up if the Depressed classes are given separate electorates. His conscience is not aroused if the nation is split by the arrangements of special electorates for classes and communities other than the Depressed Classes.

I am sure many have felt that if there was any class which deserved to be given special political rights in order to protect itself against the tyranny of the majority under the Swaraj constitution it was the depressed classes. Here is a class which is undoubtedly not in a position to sustain itself in the struggle for existence. The religion to which they are tied, instead of providing for them an honourable place, brands them as lepers, not fit for ordinary intercourse. Economically, it is a class entirely dependent upon the high-caste Hindus for earning its daily bread with no independent way of living open to it. All ways are not closed by reason of the social prejudices of the Hindus but there is a definite attempt all through out the Hindu society to bolt every possible door so as not to allow the Depressed Classes any opportunity to rise in the scale of life. Indeed it would not be an exaggeration to say that in every village the caste Hindus, however divided among themselves, are always in a standing conspiracy to put down in a merciless manner any attempt on the part of the Depressed Classes who form a small and scattered body of an ordinary Indian citizen.

In these circumstances, it would be granted by all fair-minded persons that as the only path for a community so handicapped to succeed in the struggle for life against organized tyranny, some share of political power in order that it may protect itself is a paramount necessity.

I should have thought that a well-wisher of the Depressed Classes would have fought tooth and nail for securing to them as much political power as might be possible in the new Constitution. But the Mahatma’s ways of thinking are strange and are certainly beyond my comprehension. He not only does not endeavour to augment the scanty political power which the Depressed Classes have got under the communal award, but on the contrary he has staked his very life in order to deprive them of little they have got. This is not the first attempt on the part of the Mahatma to completely dish the Depressed Classes out of political existence. Long before, there was the Minorities pact. The Mahatma tried to enter into an agreement with the Muslims and the Congress. He offered to the Muslims all the fourteen claims which they had put forth on their behalf, and in return asked them to join with him in resisting the claims for social representation made by me on behalf of the Depressed Classes.

It must be said to the credit of the Muslim Delegates, that they refused to be a party to such a black act, and saved the Depressed Class from what might as well have developed into a calamity for them as a result of the combined opposition of the Mohammedans and Mr.Gandhi.

I am unable to understand the ground of hostility of Mr.Gandhi to the Communal Award. He says that the Communal Award has separated the Depressed Classes from the Hindu Community. On the other hand, Mr.Moonje, a much stronger protagonist of the Hindu case and a militant advocate of its interests, takes a totally different view of the matter. In the speeches which he has been delivering since his arrival from London, Dr.Moonje has been insisting that the Communal Award does not create any separation between the Depressed Classes and the Hindus. Indeed, he has been boasting that he has defeated me in my attempt to politically separate the Depressed Class from the Hindus. I am sure that Dr.Moonje is right in his interpretation of the Communal Award although, I am not sure that the credit of it can legitimately go to Mr.Moonje. It is therefore surprising that Mahatma Gandhi who is a nationalist and not known to be a communalist should read the Communal Award, in so far as it relates to the Depressed Classes, in a manner quite contrary to that of a communalist like Mr.Moonje. If Dr.Moonje does not sense any separation of the Depressed Classes from the Hindus in the Communal Award the Mahatma ought to feel quite satisfied on that score.

In my opinion, that Communal Award should not only satisfy the Hindus, but also satisfy those individuals among the Depressed Classes such as Rao Bahadur Rajah, Mr.Baloo or Mr.Gavai, who are in favour of Joint Electorates. Mr.Rajah’s fulminations in the Assembly have amused me considerably. An intense supporter of Separate Electorates and the bitterest and the most vehement critic of caste Hindu tyranny, now professes faith in the Joint Electorates and love for the Hindus! How much of that is due to his natural desire to resuscitate himself from the oblivion in which he was cast by his being kept out of the Round Table Conference and how much of it is to his honest change of faith, I do not propose to discuss.

The points on which Mr.Rajah is harping by way of criticism on the Communal Award are two: One is that the Depressed Classes have gained lesser number of seats than they are entitled to on the population basis, and the other is that the Depressed Classes have been separated from the Hindu fold.

I agree in his first grievance, but when the Rao Bahadur begins to accuse those who represented the Depressed Classes at the R.T.C. for having sold their rights, I am bound to point out what Mr.Rajah did as a member of the Indian Central Committee. In that committee’s report, the Depressed Classes were given in Madras 10 seats out of 150; in Bombay 8 seats out of 14; in Bengal 8 seats our of 200; in U.P. 8 seats our of 182; in the Punjab 6 seats out of 150; in Bihar and Orissa 6 out of 150; in C.P. 8 out of 125; and in Assam 9 seats for the Depressed Classes and the indigenous and primitive races out of 75. I do not wish to overburden this statement by pointing out how this distribution compares with the population ratio. But there can be no doubt that this meant a terrible under-representation of the Depressed Classes. To this distribution of seats Mr.Rajah was a party. Surely, Mr.Rajah, before he criticizes the Communal Award and accuses others, should refresh his memory of what he accepted as Member of the Indian Central Committee on behalf of the Depressed Classes without any protest. If the population ratio of representation was to him a natural right of Depressed Classes and its full realization was to him a necessity for their protection, why did not Mr.Rajah insist upon it in the Central Committee when he had the opportunity to do so?

As to his contention that in the Communal Award, the Depressed Classes have been separated from the Hindus, it is a view to which I cannot subscribe. If Mr. Rajah has any conscientious objection to separate electorates, there is no compulsion on him to stand as a candidate in the Separate Electorates. The opportunity to stand as a candidate in the general electorate as well as the right to vote in it are there, and Mr.Rajah is free to avail himself of the same. Mr.Rajah is crying at the top of his voice to assure to the Depressed Classes that there is a complete change of heart on the part of the Caste Hindus towards the Depressed Classses. He will have the opportunity to prove that fact to the satisfaction of the Depressed Class, who are not prepared to take his word by getting himself elected in the general constituency. The Hindus who profess love and sympathy for the Depressed Classes, will have also an opportunity to prove their bona fides by electing Mr.Rajah to the legislature.

The Communal Award, therefore, in my opinion, satisfied both those who want separate Electorates and those who want joint electorates. In this sense, it is already a compromise and should be accepted as it is. As to the Mahatma, I do not know what he wants. It is assumed that although Mahatma Gandhi is opposed to the system of separate electorates, he is not opposed to the system of Joint electorates and Reserved Seats, That is a gross error. Whatever his views are today, while in London he was totally opposed to any system of Social representation for the Depressed Classes whether by Joint electorates or by Separate Electorates. Beyond the right to vote in a general electorate based upon Adult suffrage, he was not prepared to concede anything to the Depressed Classes by way of securing their representation in the legislatures. This was the position he had taken at first. Towards the end of R.T.C. he suggested to me a scheme, which he said, he was prepared to consider. The scheme was purely conventional without any constitutional sanction behind it and without any single seat being reserved for the Depressed Classes in the electoral law.

The scheme was as follows:
Depressed Class candidates might stand in the general electorate as against other high caste Hindu candidates. If any Depressed Class Candidate was defeated in the Election, he should file an election petition and obtain the verdict that he was defeated because he was an untouchable. If such a decision was obtained, the Mahatma said he would undertake to induce some Hindu members to resign and thus create a vacancy. There would be then another election in which the defeated Depressed Class candidate or any other Depressed Class candidate might again try his luck as against the Hindu candidates. Should he be defeated again, he should get similar verdict that he was defeated because he was an untouchable and so on ad infinitum. I am disclosing these facts as some people are even now under the impression that the Joint Electorates and Reserved Seats would satisfy the conscience of the Mahatma. This will show why I insist that there is no use discussing the question until the actual proposals of the Mahatma are put forth.

I must, however, point out that I cannot accept the assurances of the Mahatma that he and his Congress will do the needful. I cannot leave so important a question as the protection of my people to conventions and understandings. The Mahatma is not an immortal person, and the Congress, assuming it is not a malevolent force, is not to have an abiding existence. There have been many Mahatmas in India whose sole object was to remove untouchability and to elevate and absorb the Depressed Classes, but every one of them has failed in his mission. Mahatmas have come and Mahatmas have gone but the untouchables have remained as untouchables.

I have enough experience of the pace of Reform and the faith of Hindu reformers in the conflicts that have taken place at Mahad and Nasik, to say that no well-wisher of the Depressed Classes will ever consent to allow the uplift of the Depressed Classes to rest upon such treacherous shoulders. Reformers who in moments of crises prefer to sacrifice their principles rather than hurt the feelings of their kindred can be of no use to the Depressed Classes.

I am therefore bound to insist upon a statutory guarantee for the protection of my people. If Mr.Gandhi wishes to have the Communal Award altered, it is for him to put forth his proposals and to prove that they give a better guarantee than has been given to us under the Award.

I hope that the Mahatma will desist from carrying out the extreme step contemplated by him. We mean no harm to the Hindu Society, when we demand separate electorates. If we choose separate electorates, we do so in order to avoid the total dependence on the sweet will of the caste Hindus in matters affecting our destiny. Like the mahatma we can claim our right to err, and we expect him not to deprive us of that right. His determination to fast himself unto death is worthy of a far better cause. I could have understood the propriety of the Mahatma contemplating such extreme step for stopping riots between Hindus and Mohammedans or between the Depressed Classes and the Hindus or any other national cause. It certainly cannot improve the lot of the Depressed Classes. Whether he knows it or not, the Mahatma’s act will result in nothing but terrorism by his followers against the Depressed Classes all over the country.
Coercion of this sort will not win the Depressed Classes to the Hindu fold if they are determined to go out. And if the Mahatma chooses to ask the Depressed Classes to make a choice between Hindu faith and possession of political power, I am quite sure that the Depressed Classes will choose political power and save the Mahatma from self-immolation. If Mr. Gandhi coolly reflects on the consequences of his act, I very much doubt whether he will find this victory worth having. It is still more important to note that the Mahatma is releasing reactionary and uncontrollable forces, and is fostering the spirit of hatred between the Hindu Community and the Depressed Classes by resorting to this method and thereby widening the gulf between the two. When I opposed Mr. Gandhi at the R.T.C there was a hue and cry against me in the country and there was a conspiracy in the so-called nationalist press to represent me as a traitor to the nationalist cause, to suppress correspondence coming from my side and to boost the propaganda against my party by publishing exaggerated reports of meetings and conferences, many of which were never held. “Silver bullets” were freely used for creating divisions in the ranks of the Depressed Classes. There have also been a few clashes ending in violence.

If the Mahatma does not want all this to be repeated on a larger scale, let him, for God’s sake, reconsider his decision and avert the disastrous consequences. I believe the Mahatma does not want this. But if he does not desist, in spite of his wishes these consequences are sure to follow as night follows the day.

Before concluding this statement, I desire to assure the public that although I am entitled to say that I regard the matter as closed, I am prepared to consider the proposals of the Mahatma. I however trust the Mahatma will not drive me to the necessity of making a choice between his life and the rights of my people. For I can never consent to deliver my people bound hand and foot to the Caste Hindus for generations to come.

Dr.B.R.Ambedkar

 

Denunciation of Poona Pact March 7, 2011

Posted by moderator2 in Poona Pact.
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The untouchables were forced to sign the Poona Pact under the impact of the coercive fast of Mr.Gandhi. Dr. Ambedkar denounced it the very next day expressing his views, “The untouchables were sad. They had every reason to be sad.” He kept denouncing it till the end of his life in 1956. He denounced it in private discussions, public meetings, relevant writings, in fact on all the occasions that demanded denunciation.

As an illustration of the denunciation by Babasahab Dr.B.R.Ambedkar, some quotations from his two books
1] What Congress and Gandhi have done to the untouchables, published in 1945
2] States and Minorities, published in 1947, are given below:

1.   “There was nothing noble in the fast. It was a foul and filthy act. The fast was not for the benefit of the Untouchables. It was against them and was the worst form of coercion against helpless people to give up the constitutional safeguards of which they had been possessed under the Prime Minister’s Award and agree to live on the mercy of the Hindus. It was a vile and wicked act. How can the untouchables regard such a man as honest and sincere?”

2.   “The communal award gave the Untouchables two benefits:

a.    A fixed quota of seats to be elected by separate electorate of untouchables and to be filled by persons belonging to the untouchables.

b.   Double vote, one to be used through separate electorates and the other to be used in the general electorates.

Now, if the Poona Pact increased the quota of seats for the untouchables it took away the right to the double vote given to them by the communal award. This increase in seats can never be deemed to be a compensation for the loss of the double vote. The second vote given by the Communal award was a priceless privilege. Its value as a political weapon was beyond reckoning.”

3.   “Today the untouchables have a few more seats than were given to them by the communal award. But this is all that they have. Every other member is indifferent, if not hostile. If the communal award with its system of double voting had remained, the untouchables would have had a few seats less but every other member would have been a member for the untouchables. The increase in the number of seats for the untouchables is no increase at all and no recompense for the loss of separate electorate and the double vote.”

4.   4. “Clause (5) of the Poona Pact has limited the system of Primary election to ten years which means that any election taking place after 1947 will be by a system of Joint Electorates and reserved seats pure and simple.” “Things will be much worse under the system of joint electorates and reserved seats which will hereafter become operative under the terms of the Poona Pact. This is no mere speculation. The last election has conclusively proved that the Scheduled Castes can be completely disfranchised in a joint electorate.”

5.   “The Poona Pact has produced different reactions. The untouchables were sad. They had every reason to be.”

6.   “In the light of these circumstances, it cannot but appears that the Poona pact was only the first blow inflicted upon the untouchables and the Hindus who disliked it were bent on inflicting on it other blow as and when circumstances gave them an occasion to do so.”

7.   “After having accepted the Poona Pact, why did not Mr.Gandhi keep faith with the untouchables by telling the Congress not to despoil the politics of the Untouchables by contesting the seats reserved for the Untouchables by getting such untouchables elected as were prepared to become the tools of the Hindus?”

8.   “After having accepted the Poona Pact why did not Mr.Gandhi keep up the gentleman’s agreement and instruct the Congress High Command to include representatives of the Untouchables in the Congress Cabinets?”

9.   “This shows that Mr.Gandhi notwithstanding his being a party to the Poona pact is determined not to allow the Scheduled Castes being given the status of a separate element and that he is prepared to adopt any argument however desperate to justify his attitude of opposition”.

10.                In short Mr.Gandhi is still on the war path so far as the untouchables are concerned. He may start the trouble all over again. The time to trust him has not arrived. The untouchables must still hold that the best way to safeguard themselves is to say ‘Beware of Mr. Gandhi’.

11.                “The second misdeed of the Congress was to subject the Untouchable Congressmen to the rigours of party discipline. They were completely under the control of the Congress party Executive. They could not ask a question which it did not like. They could not move a resolution which it did not permit. They could not bring in legislation to which it objected. They could not vote as they wished and could not speak what they felt. They were there as dumb driven cattle. One of the objects of obtaining representation in the Legislature for the Untouchables is to enable them to ventilate their grievances and to obtain redress for their wrongs. The Congress successfully and effectively prevented this from happening.”

12.                “To end this long and sad story the Congress sucked the juice out of the Poona Pact and threw the rind in the face of the untouchables.”

13.                “The Poona Pact has completely disfranchised the Scheduled Castes in as much as candidates whom they rejected in the Primary election-which is a true index of their will-have been returned in the Final election by the votes of the Castes Hindus.”

14.                “The Poona Pact is thus fraught with mischief. It was accepted because of the coercive fast of Mr.Gandhi and because of assurance given at the time that the Hindus will not interfere in the election of Scheduled Castes.”

15.                “The Joint Electorate is from the point of the Hindus to use a familiar phrase a “Rotten Borough” in which the Hindus get the right to nominate an untouchable to set nominally as a representative of the untouchables but really as a tool of the Hindus”

 

Dr.B.R.Ambedkar


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Director Bangalore chapter

Today it is corruption, tomorrow it can be anything. thanks for your esteemed comments


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Director Bangalore chapter

is Judiciary so innocent and good with likes of Gopalakrishnan and that CJI who presided during Bhopal tragedy? the correct way is tom remove those politcos who donot perform


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Mobocracy dictates the terms.    Real  harm  is  that   you  and  me        the common men    are  invisible  in  ihe  crowd/mob    and   media   all cver  the nation  shows  persons  with doubtful credentials leading the march with burning candles.


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Senior Partner

" Now this whole exervcise has become an exercise which is carried out  outside of Parliament. Is it healthy?"

"But they are participating in thousands and thousands in the movement.."

@ Captainjohann, do not get carried away by stage managed "marketing Road Show by so called Civil Society ie educated fools".

This road show of Anna backed by Kiran Bedi, Swami Agnivesh and Co is only to hijack the much media hyped issue of Corruption and make it to appear that "Congress really is against Corruption" Sh Anna is stanch Congressian.

This roadshow looks like packaged by vested interests. Anna hazare from nowhere appears and goes on indefinite Fast not seeking implementation of Prevention of corruption Act but seeks a committee only.. Manmohan and Sonia jumps in requesting to give up fast.

24 X 7 Media jumps in with pizza eating, pub going Pink Chaddi kind of Candle Aradhana Group. After two days of thamasha the show is closed. Now it is IPL cricket.

Effectively one more committee is constituted and issue of Corruption is dumped into it.

The same ploy was employed by MGR on Reservation issue! Only diff. is MGR took the pain sitting for a marathon 5 days and Sonia effectively made the civil society bosses to do the Job!!

"fact that many of the writers had left the forum"

Please be aware that this LCI forum has seen many quitters in the last five years.

It is not the quitters who contribute to the movement but the fighters who takes the movement ahead.


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UNEMPLOYED

But these are the same guys who donot vote. they just donot like to stand in Q and vote.

 

----  your anxity is perfect.

let them not to vote.

let them prepare the right things, let it prepare before the parliament, thereafter  people will watch - what the perliamentarians doing at the time of voting.

 
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UNEMPLOYED

" Now this whole exervcise has become an exercise which is carried out  outside of Parliament. Is it healthy?"

 

-----    your anxity is very perfect, it could be nice if the whole process done, by the perliamenterians within the perliament. but it was not possible.  however it is an extra ordinary process by the vetern leadership, out of perliament. but the final touch will be given by the perliament only.

THEREFORE PLEASE DO NOT WORRY, WATCH THE ACTIVITIES, AND LET THE PEOPLE AWARE OF YOUR COMMENTS.

 
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