(Expert Opinion Required) I'm Muslim Or Hindu??

As per Adv. Rajoo he cannot again change to Hindu religion. He said "Once you have converted to Muslim  religion then you are a muslim."

---   perhaps you misunderstood mr rajoo;

as he is an advocate, i understood that he is clear in the concept of fundamental right on religion.

when one changed to islam from hinduism - he is mohamedan.

when he is mohamedan and want to reconvert to hinduism, he requires a ceremony to change / reconvert.

in my knowledge two religious groups do this conversion one is arya samaj and other led by dilip singh judev.

according to the author, he did not  raise the point of reconversion. therefore he is mohamedan.

but it is also true that he has the fundamental right to reconvert to hinduism.   NO BAR ON IT.

so far my knowledge is concerned, - your answer perfect and according to constitution.

@Zeeshan

Let me try to explain my concern in another words.

As we all know that SC/ST take special benefits as per our constitutional setup. I've come across many cases where people convert to such caste, obtain the certificate but do not change their sirname. Now when the opportunity comes to take a job or admission, they present their certificate however, for the world they live like their sirname and earlier caste (by birth).

Ethically speaking such tactics is strongly condemned. However, do we have any opportunity to stop this person from misusing this provision? Isnt it unfair that for the whole world he is some other caste but for taking advantage he is someone else. Shouldn't there be unanimity to prevent such happenings. Same is the case of religion conversion.

/peace

/Saurabh.V

When you have changed your religion, why you want to take benefits of both religion.

Our constitution not allowed a person will change time to time his religion for taking benefits.

@Karun,

My question is hypothetical and not real situation. However, my concern is over the ambiguity over this scenario.

None of the learned member has replied aptly as yet. May be I've not been able to put forth my views.

If anyone has converted to any other religion, and takes a certificate but never formally declares and continues to live like his earlier religion then do we have any cure to curb this menace??? Such conversion would always stay under cover unless this person does not show his certificate. If we go as per the presumption, that once he has formally obtained a genuine certificate of conversion, he would belong to the new religion, then, it would create a social menace. Isnt it? Though I agree people are not using is frequently. But what can one do if he misuses it? Nothing?

No. We can do one thing. Even if a person converts himself formally to a new religion, but continues to live as per his former religion, then such conversion should be invalid or voidable. Thats my point!

Now any suggestions??

//peace

/Saurabh..V

Mr.Saurabh:

Your last post is as old as 10^th June 2011. But since you say that no one has satisfactorily answered your question “let me make a try”. It is also possible that your question has no clear answer. Under such circumstances one has to go by precedents, if there are, or by court decisions.

At the outset itself let me say that there is no clear answer to your question. But knowingly suppressing relevant information to achieve something, which otherwise one is not eligible, is a criminal offence punishable under law. Whatever he achieved can also be undone.

First of all, among Hindus caste is decided by birth i.e. by the caste of the parents. So no conversion from any caste to any other caste is possible. If someone says that he got converted to a lower caste and gets a caste certificate, it would be a false certificate and he can be punished. In this forum itself some members had asked whether in an inter-caste marriage, if only one of them belong to a scheduled caste, his or her spouse or their children can claim benefits of scheduled caste. Here also there is no enacted law. Hindu scripttures deal with the subject. But the scripttures have been superseded by our Constitution. So one has to go to court if one has, for any reason, to decide on one’s own caste. Some persons have gone to court and courts have given varied decisions. I do not know whether there is any decision of the Supreme Court, so that it can become a case law.

Now what about conversion to Islam? If one gets converted to Islam, gets a certificate, he has to be considered a Muslim in the normal course of things. But I don’t think that there is a practice of giving certificate of conversion in Islam.  If one does not disclose his conversion and continues to live as Hindu and the Aligarh Muslim University denies him a post reserved for Muslim, one can go to court. But it is not likely that courts will decide on their own. They may examine Islamic scholars presented by both sides. I do not think that Aligarh Muslim University is bound to abide by such decision.

A Hindu cannot contract a second marriage, when the first spouse is living, under the anti-bigamy provisions of the Hindu Marriage Act. But under the Shariat law a Muslim can have up to four wives. Many well known Hindu celebrities have adopted this trick to contract a second marriage. They will not publicly announce their conversion and will retain their original Hindu identities for all legal and public purposes, except if their second marriage is questioned or they are sued.

So far there are no reservations for Muslims. Late Mr. Y. S. R. Reddy, then Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh, introduced reservations for Muslims. But it was shot down by the High Court. Reservations for Muslims can still come. But even then it is most likely that it will be only for backward Muslims.

Now what about conversion from another religion to Hinduism? One has to be born as a Hindu in a particular caste. But had it been so always? Before the arrival of Islam and Christianity into India there was no concept of religions as we have today. There were religions like Buddhism and Jainism. But they were mostly considered as professing certain opinions and there were free migrations among religions. Jains live like Hindus and even go to temples. Even fanatic Buddhists from Sri Lanka go to temples in India like Guruvayur. The temple authorities do not object either. Many who came into India through the Khyber Pass like Alexander the Great, the Sakas and Hunas were not Hindus. But after generations not only they became unidentifiable from other Hindus, but even successfully claimed themselves to belong to upper castes. Rajputs, who claim they to be Kshatriyas are believed to be descendants of Hunas. At the time they entered into India, they were referred to as Yavanas. But over generations they lost their Yavana identities.

Chitpavan Brahmins and Bane Israelis of Maharashtra are supposed to belong to the same race, which migrated from the Middle East. It is possible they were Jews before coming to India or were converted to Judaism after coming to India. But how some became Brahmins? Chitpavan Brahmins are very orthodox.

Now there were some interesting cases. As you may know Ms Indira Nehru, a Brahmin married Mr. Feroz Ghandy a Parsi, though as per Vedic rituals, and became Mrs. Indira Gandhi. Decades later the temple authorities of Jagannath Temple at Puri did not allow her claiming she was not a Hindu. Some years later she petitioned the Supreme Court, which decreed that she was a Hindu. Did the Jagannath Temple authorities comply with Supreme Court decree? We do not know, because afterwards Madam Gandhi did not go to that temple.

Singer Yesu Das, a Christian, was an ardent devotee of deities at Guruvayur and Sabari Mala. He has sung many songs in praise of the Lords. But when he wanted to enter Guruvayur temple, he was not allowed. No court can enforce its law on Guruvayur temple. Very recently Meera Jasmine, a well known South Indian actor and a Christian, entered a temple in North Kerala in cognate.  Later the Temple authorities found out and decided to “purify” the temple. Meera Jasmine, on her own, gave Rs.10000/- for the purpose. The temple authorities demanded another Rs.15000/- and she paid that also. I don’t know how the amounts were accounted or were accounted at all. Who can question God? Even in the case of Satya Sai Baba no authority has asked for account of crores worth currency notes, gold and silver found after his death.

The temple at Tirupati was earlier allowing non-Hindus also and many celebrities have entered the temple. But some years back they decided not to allow non-Hindus.

Until the arrival of the British there was no continuity of an established law and legal system. There were intermittent empires and the emperors established some kind of legal system. But empires were dynasty based and no dynasty survived more than two or three centuries. In between small chieftains will capture power splitting the country into a number of kingdoms, each one having a legal system dictated by its ruler. Of course religions played an important part in the matter of continuity of laws. But they were also manipulated by the rulers to serve their selfish interests.

In conclusion there are things, which no law can throw light on. If you have comments or further questions, you are most welcome.

@Ramani

The fact-sheet was really worth reading and i thank you for your time to post a reply!

My question cut to short is, "How the conversion should take place and how the convert should be made eligible to take benefits fromonly  the new religion and cease to take any benefit/loss of forsaken religion".

//peace

/Saurabh..V

Dear Dr. Ramani,

I always like to go through your posts, which throw a lot of light on political, economic, anthropology, religious topics etc. very thoroughly.  When I read your posts, I remember my eldest brother, who was also very much fond of sharing such beautiful knowledge in a lucid way, just like you.  Long back, in the evenings, he used to sit amongst us children and went on talking on various the then past and present topics and opened our minds to new vistas. The evenings turned into nights and under the twinkiling stars, we forgot our supper and sleep and drenched with knowledge.   Most of my chidhood friends, who became very prominent personalities in their own fields and myself owe to him for our beautiful evenings.  I do not know whether you are atheist or agnoist but he was atheist and when they (including your) talk about world wide subjects, they talk very objectively.  I have very strong different opinions on what you say about gender laws, women's emanicipation, political events and secularism (or you may describe it psudo secularism).  Despite that I have got great respect to your deep knowledge on various subjects and sharing them with us in tasteful way. 

Warm regards

In the first place no conversion between castes in the first place is possible. As for conversion between religions a Hindu can get converted to any other religion following the ritual of the receiving religion. Conversion from any other religion to Hinduism is possible through Aryasamaj. Such Hindus are called Aryasamajists.

Notwithstanding equality our Constitution originally gave special consideration to Scheduled Castes and Tribes and women only and that too was for only for limited period of 15 years. In due course the special considerations were made permanent. Also the Constitution was amended to include Other Backward Castes also.

So no person can claim caste benefits through caste conversion. Some persons get the caste benefits with false caste certificate. That is a punishable crime and criminal law should take care of it.

As at present our Constitution does not give any special consideration for those belonging to non-Hindu religions. So the question of deriving benefits through conversion or re-conversion does not arise.

Madam Hema:

You are embarrassing me. I am an agnostic. But I do not fight with or get into arguments with those who believe in God. But I hate God-men of all religions. They are paranoids.  I do not know what, according to you, are my views on gender equality and secularism

@Saurabh, I am not lawyer, but I can try answering your query in different way;

First of all, let me tell you that Non-Muslim will never convert to Muslim just like that or just to fetch the benefits being Muslim. It is clear from Quran and Hadith that only person who gets hidayat (guidance) from Allah, he will get opportunity to convert to Islam. After converting, he must practice Islam.

Forget about the constituency or legalitlies at the moment. Then, second thing to note here is that you cannot drink TWO drinks in one glass at a time, i.e. half glass of tea and remaining half filled with Pepsi. Likewise, one has to understand that converting to Islam is purely spritual thing and not the qualification that anytime one can change it. You will also agree with me that we keep practice our religion to get peace of Mind and Soul. Then if a person holds TWO religion's certificate, how he can be in peace to survive?

Lets say, if Hindu converts to Muslim and keeps his identity hidden as Hindu or Muslim, ofcourse he can, but the question is for how long he can do like this and What will be his family structure? If he hides his identity of being Hindu or Muslim, one day he will get exposed to the society. Even if he is very smart enough to play safe, then he is cheating himself and ONLY ONE MOMENT or INCIDENT in his life is enough for him to end up in facing criminal charges as described by lawyers in above replies and he will be behind bars. So what is the use of playing with religion? It is stupidity to convert to any religion just to avail benefits. One should know that conversion of religion is meant for peace of mind and soul and the believe.

Hope your query is answered. Thanks for raising such excellent queries, I hope it helps others as well.

should you need further talks on this please PM me or continue this thread.

Never Give Up

What Mr. Insaniyat says are pious statements divorced from what actually happens in this world. Most would have heard of Janab Mohammad Ali Jinnha. Those who have heard of Mr. Jinnah, would also know that in Pakistan he is revered as the Father of the Islamic State of Pakistan. One who goes to Pakistan can see his photographs in Government Offices and other public places. So what would one expect him to be? A pious Muslim fitting the descripttion given by Mr. Insaniyat? But what he really was? Read on.

Mr. Jinnah’s wife was a Parsee. She did not get converted to Islam either before or after their marriage. Late Justice M. C. Chagla has reported about Mr. Jinnah in his book “Roses in December” His wife used to bring pork for his lunch. He consumed alchohol. I do not think he performed “namaz” five times a day. There were many pious Muslims and Muslim scholars as leaders in the then Muslim League. But still above them all Mr. Jinnah was considered the top-most leader.

Mr. Zulfikkar Ali Bhutto was Prime Minister of Pakistan. It was well-known that he consumed alchohol. I had many highly educated Muslim colleagues. They used to attend cocktail parties and they were not exactly drinking Coca Cola at the parties. Still fathers of Muslim girls wanted them as their Damads.

Mr. Insaniyat may be pained to read all these. My intention is not to hurt him. I am only stating facts. I have to say that I had also pious Muslim colleagues. They used to do namaz at noon even on the factory floor. Some Shiva Sainiks used to complain to me. But I never bothered about those complaints.

@Ramani,

You lost the subject here and start targeting and criticising the participant to divert from question of the author. Anyway, it doesn't hurt me. It is clear from my earlier post that if you convert to Muslim, you must practice Islam.

Since the human being tendency is to believe in what they see by their own eyes, therefore we scared of police, court and law, because we can see them and we know the consequences of wrong doing. If you take religion, for example Islam, well, it is not necessary that you should practice Islam, because no one is present here to force you or to punish you of not following Islam except the angels, but angles are not visible to our eyes. Therefore Islam is nothing but "Believe".

Apart from legal answer to the question, spritual thoughts also should apply. We are talking here how to be successful if one wants to play mischievious act of coverting to Islam and hiding the identity, which is sure possible, but the question comes again, for how long, one can hide his identity of religion? Many people might have done this mischievious act before, then why this question arises now, if they were successful in their act?

Quran is not only for Muslims, it is the Guide for all mankind on this earth. It is mentioned in Quran, that if you donot practice Islam, no problem except, Almighty will never attend you  and will leave you in the hands of evil. You also know that if you are in the hands of evil, what will happen.

So do not watch those Muslims who are not practicing Islam.

Converting to Islam is simple but practicing Islam is challenging!

@ Mr. Insaniyat

Dear Sir,

Actually you strayed away from the question asked by Mr. Saurabh and I just responded to what you said. You are a devout Muslim. But that is your personal matter and I respect it. But following laws of any religion is voluntary in India, because India is a secular democracy. Laws of any religion, which are in conflict with the Indian Constitution or the laws enacted there under cannot be enforced. I shall give you an instance here. There is a Muslim community in Western India called Dawoodi Bohras. They are Shias. Their spiritual head is one Syyedna. The community has a bank known as Bombay Mercantile Co-operative Bank Ltd. Like any other bank they accept deposits on interest and charge interest on loans given by them. The Syyedna gave an order to the Bank that they should neither give nor accept interest because under Islam charging interest is haram.  No bank will be able to do business, if they abolish interest in their transactions. The Bank went to court and the order of the Sayyedna was quashed. Under Taliban they make observance of religion compulsory. Men have to compulsorily grow beard without mustache. Girls have to wear purdah and they cannot go to secular schools. In Saudi Arabia and some other countries in the Gulf region there are religious police. They compel the population to go to Mosque for prayer. Not observing fast during Ramzaan is a punishable offence.

But India, being a secular democracy, no religious observance, whether for Hindus, Muslims, Christians or any other religion, can be made compulsory. During the erstwhile regime of BJP in Karnataka, Bhagavat Gita was made compulsory in schools. Some members here were of opinion, just as you are with Quran, that Gita was for the entire humanity. But one Muslim leader said that just as the reading of Quran cannot be made compulsory for Hindus, Gita cannot be compulsory for Muslims. I differ from him. Gita cannot be made compulsory even for Hindus and Quran cannot be made compulsory for Muslims either.

Just as the name you have assumed, have faith in Insaniyat only.