Are these things really an offence?

 

Please do not close your account just because admin deletes a thread.

Before begining this discussion, I think it is important to understand the concept, use and differences between malum in se and malum prohibitum laws.

Freedom and Liberty demands malum prohitum laws be kept to the barest minimum. Malum prohibitum laws are favorite tools of repression and supression used by dictators and tyrants. Malum prohibitum laws in large quantity are not a sign of true and real democracies where people enjoy true freedom and liberty.

 

so in my list i don't think mallum in se will be applicable since both party gains. only mallum prohibitum should be applicable.

but since both parties gain why even mallum prohibitum will be applicable?

Both parties gaining is your interpretation. Sometimes one party gets addicted and becomes a looser. Sometimes the quantity and level of this "addiction" in society becomes so huge that it becomes a social problem. Then legislature gets a reason to regulate or control the source by enacting law. What do objects and reasons or preamble of these laws say also need to be studied.

well in that case we can have systems to remove addiction from people. if somebody gets addicted in any one of the above mentioned activity then we will arrange mental councelling session for them. why should ban the activities entirely?

for example: will you ban drinking cold drinks if some people got addicted and got harmed? or will you ban watching tv or internet if somebody get addicted to it? won't it be justified that we will arrange mental councelling session for these people?

 

also these activity hams society is your personal interpretation.

Then how do you justify your contention in context to the Constitution? Why do you feel that these laws are unconstitutional?

These are offences against the state .. two parties may gain but the society loses character and self esteem. If we look more personally the family of the person who indulges in the above loses. Hence such offences cannot be treated as civil cases.

Also this is the reason that these offences will translate into cases such as

A vs State/UoI/Queen/Emperor .. it will never translate into cases as  A vs B etc etc ..

If the State wants it can legislate plenty of laws so that every citizen will become a criminal in the eyes of law. Every criminal offense is always crime against State. This is not being discussed or in question.

 

There are many countries where these acts are not criminal offenses. This does not mean those societies do not have character. Character is subjective and relative matter.

 

Before British came to India, these acts were also not criminal offenses during Mughal rule or before. This does not mean that society had no character before British came. Let us think if there is any way the laws criminalizing these acts can be proved to be unconstitutional.

Originally posted by :Democratic Indian
"	Then how do you justify your contention in context to the Constitution? Why do you feel that these laws are unconstitutional?	"

i feel these laws are unconstitutional because these laws criminalize an act which harms nobody.  there is no meaning to criminalize a benign act that harms nobody in the common sense. why do you think these activities harm society? exactly what kind of harm is produced by them?

 

 

secondly, our constitution granted us right to personal liberty. this means that we could do anything so far it does not harm others. these acts as i show do not harm any body. so why criminalize them?

Originally posted by :Saurabh Chopra
"	These are offences against the state .. two parties may gain but the society loses character and self esteem. If we look more personally the family of the person who indulges in the above loses. Hence such offences cannot be treated as civil cases.	"

one word: personal belief system.

"" the general rule of lawsuit as we experienced in our life states that:

in every lawsuit, one party gains at the expense of other party. for example in a suit x vs. y, x gains at the cost of y. x gains, y loses. ""

Are you sure is there any such rule? I have personally never come any such rule. 

India is a welfare state .. that means if there is a law which puts a tab on your freedom but others benefit the legislature will choose that law .. social welfare over personal freedom.

1) Prostitution :- Do you think the wife/kids of the man who gets pleasure gains anything? Do you think the prostitute gains anything by being a prostitute? Are you justifying human trafficking ? Do you think the state does not have any duty towards the mother/father/siblings of the man who is going to take pleasure from the prostitute. The state feels the man loses something. The society feels that its bad for them.

2) Gambling:- Men who spend all their whole salary on gambling. The education that their children miss, the food that they cannot eat because of this? Do you think its justified? Convince the state or the court that its okay. Let those men and their families die.

3) Dance bar:- Its not a criminal act. One needs a license I guess. Depends on the state laws

4) Adult movie - Its not a crime. There are movies with A rating played in the Cinema halls.

5) Wine shops:- Again not a criminal act. Just in Gujarat it may be. Depends on state laws

6) Rave party:- Creates disturbance to neighbours. Usually party attendants drink, smoke, lose their senses, shout, drive at break neck speeds, create nuisance around them, potential area for rape and s*xual abuse. creates social disharmony.

The state wont look at your pleasure first they will consider the benefit of the society as a whole. That is why you cannot defeat these laws in court.. And that is why these laws are very much constitutional.

The formula for freedom is discipline .. drive at break neck speeds and society brings speed limit. Similarly its the acts of the individuals which invite laws and not vice versa.

Somebody saw that too many families are getting destroyed because of men drinking and gambling, hence they brought out a law. Nobody brings out laws so that they can control others, its just that laws are brought out because the people take freedom for granted.

"One word: personal belief system" - its a social belief system not a personal one.

Personally I believe in Anushasan( self discipline) and not Shasan ( rule ) . I have just stated above what your legislatures as a whole have felt till now.

But its a democracy and you can always garner support and get the above laws de criminalized. Probably stand up for elections or convince your MPs and MLAs to pass laws which allow freedom to have unlimited s*x, booze, drugs, p*rn etc etc.

Or may be you can file a PIL or a Writ against such barbaric  laws.

1) Prostitution :- Do you think the wife/kids of the man who gets pleasure gains anything? Do you think the prostitute gains anything by being a prostitute? Are you justifying human trafficking ? Do you think the state does not have any duty towards the mother/father/siblings of the man who is going to take pleasure from the prostitute. The state feels the man loses something. The society feels that its bad for them.


the man with the prostitute is supposed to not abandoning his wife and kids.this means that the man equally cares for wife and prostitute. if the wife of the man does not gain anything, she is not losing anything also because the man still cares for her too.

Do you think the prostitute gains anything by being a prostitute? are you blind? do you know how much money a prostitute can earn at one sitting? women cannot have more money in any profession than this prostitution. the bollywood film industry is doing softcore prostitution. you can guess how much a woman can earn even from a B grade movie.

i am not justifying human trafficking since the woman suffers from that. i am talking about voluntary prostitution by women for money. women should please men out of their free will and earn big money in the process.

look i don't know if state has a duty or not but i know about article 21. it says that every citizen must have right to personal liberty. if a man and woman out of their free will do s*x and nobody sufferes any harm, why state should interfare at all? if state does so, it will be a violation of article 21. state only interfare if requested by affected party and not voluntarily.


2) Gambling:- Men who spend all their whole salary on gambling. The education that their children miss, the food that they cannot eat because of this? Do you think its justified? Convince the state or the court that its okay. Let those men and their families die.

not all men spend their entire salary in gambling. you know i have seen many people doing gambling with cards sitting on the rock of the street. their families are wellfed and they don't spend their entire salary. the same gambling with playing cards will go on in the gambling house and very few people will suffer you know.
so don't worry.


3) Dance bar:- Its not a criminal act. One needs a license I guess. Depends on the state laws

really? why them maharashtra govt. close all dance bar damaging the right of the citizen to see beautiful women dancing and get excited? why police arrest all those who want to see dance and the owner of the dance bar? you know nothing about whats going on.


4) Adult movie - Its not a crime. There are movies with A rating played in the Cinema halls.

those movies are not adult movie at all because most of the adult scene are censored from it. those are just banana movies with A rating to attract people. the movie i am talking about contains full nudity, full s*xual intercourse like p*rn video etc. it is always a crime. i just don't know why?

5) Wine shops:- Again not a criminal act. Just in Gujarat it may be. Depends on state laws

yes, but why even state criminalize it?

6) Rave party:- Creates disturbance to neighbours. Usually party attendants drink, smoke, lose their senses, shout, drive at break neck speeds, create nuisance around them, potential area for rape and s*xual abuse. creates social disharmony.

you please be a little more scientific. in rave party people enjoy to the fullest.why always police comes to be kabab me haddi? nobody file an FIR, nobody request the police to interfare, why then police suddenly shows up, arrest, harrass peace loving fun loving people?


The state wont look at your pleasure first they will consider the benefit of the society as a whole. That is why you cannot defeat these laws in court.. And that is why these laws are very much constitutional.


well then state violates art 21. why art. 21 says personal liberty? why it should not say social liberty? i think the 2 words are different. these laws are very much unconstitutional. moreover society consists of individual person. if you don't care for individual person, you are not caring for society.


The formula for freedom is discipline .. drive at break neck speeds and society brings speed limit. Similarly its the acts of the individuals which invite laws and not vice versa.

you know freedom and discipline are two opposite words. we can figure out from definition. freedom means doing what you like to do. discipline means following a rule which means not doing what you like to do. since these 2 are opposite words, one cannot follow from other. here is more practical suggession. freedom comes from absense of discipline. ok? you have no idea what you are taking about.

Somebody saw that too many families are getting destroyed because of men drinking and gambling, hence they brought out a law. Nobody brings out laws so that they can control others, its just that laws are brought out because the people take freedom for granted.

not too many my dear. it is very few family when compared to the entire population of india.now comes media game. media by continous publicity( almost 24 hours) regarding these families makes us think that the families are huge in number. it is all psychological game played by media dude.

"One word: personal belief system" - its a social belief system not a personal one.

it is a social superstition that needs to be corrected.

Personally I believe in Anushasan( self discipline) and not Shasan ( rule ) . I have just stated above what your legislatures as a whole have felt till now.

i have told you freedom is absense of discipline.

But its a democracy and you can always garner support and get the above laws de criminalized. Probably stand up for elections or convince your MPs and MLAs to pass laws which allow freedom to have unlimited s*x, booze, drugs, p*rn etc etc.

Or may be you can file a PIL or a Writ against such barbaric  laws.

the strategy of change is not a matter of discussion here. but you have many superstition(belief without solid base) much like your belief about piousness of "holy saints", existance of god or existance of puppet deity or shri rama etc. etc.


now i am telling you what exactly harms the society and why?

1] corruption by politician: this wastes people, money, energy and gives nothing to people

2] globalization: increase competition, job cuts, change of laws to harm public, destruction of indigenous industry.

3] religion: it is the biggest destroyer of society. it consumes money like a shark and gives no result at all. country's moneytary resources got destroyed. another way it harms society is by making people believe that god will change their life, that they are suffering because of their fate. people never understand the real cause of their suffering. people never understand that there is no god who could change their life. so religion destroys society both financially and mentally.

so court should fight against all these 3 enemies, especially religion rather than my cases mentioned above. 

wish you have your wisdom back my friend.

Directive Principles especially Articles 37, 47 can be related to this matter in discussion. But directive principles cannot override and defeat the guarantees under Part III of Constitution, which are guaranteed to every citizen/person etc. If directive principles are allowed to override guarantees under Part III then the very purpose of guarantees may get defeated.

Seventh Schedule List II—State List Clauses 34 and 62

34. Betting and gambling

62. Taxes on luxuries, including taxes on entertainments, amusements,
betting and gambling.

As per above mentioned provisions of the Constitution the State can regulate or tax betting and gambling. The rights of betting and gambling flow from Article 21 and so does the power of State to tax them that has been elaborated under State list.

 

Part XIX.—Miscellaneous.—Art. 366 Clause 29, Sub Clause f

(29) “tax on income” includes a tax in the nature
of an excess profits tax;
2[(29A) “tax on the sale or purchase of goods”
includes—

(f) a tax on the supply, by way of or as part of any service or in any other manner whatsoever, of goods, being food or any other article for human consumption or any drink (whether or not intoxicating), where such supply or service, is for cash, deferred payment or other valuable consideration, and such transfer, delivery or supply of any goods shall be deemed to be a sale of those goods by the person
making the transfer, delivery or supply and a purchase of those goods by the person to whom such transfer, delivery or supply is made;]

As per above mentioned provisions of the Constitution the State can charge income tax, tax on sale/ purchase any service/goods or any drink(whether or not intoxicating). Income tax/taxes flow from Article 21 and so do the services and drinks flow from Article 21 that are being taxed by elaborating under Article 366 clause 29.

There are various doctrines of Indian Constitution that are used to determine if any law is against it. They are doctrine of eclipse, doctrine of severability, doctrine of implied power, doctrine of basic structure, doctrine of colourable legislation, doctrine of pith and substance.

Now question arises, which particular laws or their specific parts are unconstitutional by any of these doctrines? Which specific parts of the law give overdelegated powers to State or police etc. to create misery in the way of enjoying the concerned rights under Article 21?