Today's Symposium-Indian Democracy and Concept of Ramrajya

"Well how guns have come in sir."

Shashikumarji,

1) There have been a number of rulings by Hon'ble Supreme Court in suppoprt of citizens right to self defense. People cannot be expected to defend themselves with bare hands! Please do not say that Arms Act "prevents" crime. It prevents NOTHING from happening. Did it prevent 26/11 from hapening? Only after the crime has been committed, innocent and defenseless lives have been lost, only them Arms Act comes into some picture. Violent crime can be tackled by making some changes to IPC and its proper enforcement and not by "disarming" common people in a truly free and democratic country like ours. Policy of disarming the people is done by tryrants because they fear the people. Not by goverments of the people, by the people, for the people.

2) RKBA is a basic human right and guaranteed under Articles 19 and 21. Please do not ask me how, I have already explained in brief in my earlier posts in this thread. I will create another thread for it also, everyone is welcome to give the opinions in that thread.

3) How can we envision Ram Rajya as visualised by the author of this thread, where people are not allowed this very basic human right of RKBA? If we see pictures of our Lord Ram and all other Gods and Goddesses were armed with the latest weapons of the time to fight the evil. Goddess Durga has the latest and best arms in all her 10 hands. What does this signify to you Sir?? If we do not allow our own people the right to self defense and RKBA, then whom do we allow? To the criminals and the corrupt, who anyways do not follow the law? The life of people becomes just like that of a prisoner who has been condemned to death. He has no right of self defense or RKBA and has his hands tight behind his back!

"You should have given the lengths of the guns also. A gun, which is less than 22" in length is not permitted under the Arms Act, 1959 as it stands at present."

Ramaniji,

Please take it off from your mind that any firearm less than 22" is not permitted under Arms Act. There is nothing of the type you are claiming in Arms Act 1959. Please avoid mentioning such incorrect information as it may create wrong impression in minds of people who are not familiar with Arms Act 1959.

Prohibited Bore Arms: Arms in Arms Rules 1962 SCHEDULE -I category I(b) and I(c) falls in prohibited bore arms.

Non Prohibited Bore Arms: Arms in Arms Rules 1962 Schedule I Category III falls in non prohibited bore arms.

Probably you are cofusing with Arms Rules 1962 SCHEDULE -I category I(b) wherein it considers smooth bore guns having barrel of less than 20" in length as prohibited bores. Even smooth bore barrel less than 20" is perfectly legal if you have a license for it. Example of smooth bore guns is 12 bore guns, which are usually in double barrels(the type that you see with bank guards and is popularly called Donali in Hindi). Pistols/revolvers/rifles are not smooth bore firearms, instead they are rifled bore firearms. Hence Arms Rules, 1962 - Schedule I - categories I(b) and I(c) for Prohibited Bores is not applicable to pistols/revolvers/rifles.

This Prohibited Bore and Non Prohibited Bore concept is practically an eyewash with people. It was started around Lord Curzon's time in 1920s and it is an travesty of our democracy that it is still countinuing in a free and democratic country. It was done by British rulers to ensure that Indian soldiers in Armed forces and the civilians have cartridges of different length for their firearms. Purpose: In event of any mutiny, the extra ammunition with soldiers does not fire from civilian firearms and vice versa, since British did not trust the Indian soldiers, nor the Indian people. It was their thinking that Indian soldiers in Armed Forces would supply ammunition to freedom fighters. If we do not trust our own soldiers  today, who have sworn to die fighting for us, then who do we trust? All modern day democratic countries, encourage their citizens to keep firearms in same caliber as armed forces so that in event of hostilities/war, there is no logistical problem for manufacture and supply of arms/ammunition in different bores. This PB/NPB concept is the irrelevant in free India, unfortunately this discrimination is still continuing and it is still there in Arms Rules 1962 because of the ignorance and apathy of bureaucrats.

Contrary to the popular perception and belief, Prohibited Bore arms/ammunition do not have any extra "power" or ballistic properties over NPB arms/ammunition. Example:

1) 9 mm parabellum made by IOFB is PB and .357 Magnum is NPB. .357 Magnum is much more powerful than 9 mm

2) 7.62*39 mm of AK 47 is PB, 7.62* 51 mm(NATO) used in SLRs is PB but 7.62*63 mm(30-06) is NBP. 7.62*63 mm is much more powerful than 7.62*39 mm of AK 47 and also slightly more powerful than 7.62*51 mm(NATO)

Reference https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11511&p=115943#p115943

"Certainly AK-47 is prohibited."

Nothing is "prohibited" if you are having the license for same. Licenses for these type of firearms have been issued in past to many people. Now please do not ask me how and why? If you are able to undertand that Articles 19 and 21 guarantees RKBA, you will be smart enough to understand this aspect also.

"Can you give also approximate price of each?"

I am not sure about prices, you can ask this from any arms dealer or put this question in Indian gun forum. Out of the four guns above, Mauser C96 Broomhandle and Mauser K98 Rifle fall in category of NPB. If your license says NBP pistol/revolver, you will be able to purchase any pistol or revolver falling in NPB category. Similarly if your license says NPB Rifle/Shotgun, you will be able to purchase any rifle or smooth bore gun falling in NPB category. LeeEnfield SMLE and AK-47 would fall in category of PB.

The real hidden magical quality of PB arms is the price difference between the PB and NPB. The prices of PB arms start from around Rs 7000/ only, but NPB from Rs 85,000/ upwards running into lakhs! How this difference? Market manipulation by government to ensure prices of NPB firearms are beyond the reach of common people. Presently licenses for PB are issued by MHA only. Practically VIPs and well connected people are issued PB licenes. They are issued under the reason "grave and imminent" threat. This is how we have unequals in the land of equuals! VIPs having PB licenses can buy arms starting from Rs 7000 upwards, whereas "common" citizens have to start from Rs 85,000 upwards!

"Hence Arms Rules, 1962 - Schedule I - categories I(b) and I(c) for Prohibited Bores is not applicable to pistols/revolvers/rifles." Please read this as:

Hence Arms Rules 1962 SCHEDULE -I category I(b) where it considers smooth bore guns having barrel of less than 20" in length as prohibited bores is not applicable to pistols/revolvers/rifles..

I am giving below the provisions in Chapter III of the Act

Chapter III - PROVISIONS RELATING TO LICENCES

13. Grant of licences

1) An application for the grant of a licence under Chapter II shall be made to the licensing authority and shall be in such form, contain such particulars and be accompanied by such fee, if any, as may be prescribed.

(2) On receipt of an application, the licensing authority, after making such inquiry, if any, as it may consider necessary, shall, subject to the other provisions of this Chapter, by order in writing either grant the licence or refuse to grant the same.

(3) The licensing authority shall grant---

(a) a licence under section 3 where the licence is required---

(i) by a citizen of India in respect of a smooth bore gun having a barrel of not less than twenty inches in length to be used for protection or sport or in respect of a muzzle loading gun to be used for bona fide crop protection:

Provided that where having regard to the circumstances of any case, the licensing authority is satisfied that a muzzle loading gun will not be sufficient for crop protection, the licensing authority may grant a licence in respect of any other smooth bore gun as aforesaid for such protection, or

(ii) in respect of a point 22 bore rifle or an air rifle to be used for target practice by a member of a rifle club or rifle association licensed or recognized by the Central Government;

(b) a licence under section 3 in any other case or a licence under section 4, section 5, section 6, section 10 or section 12, if the licensing authority is satisfied that the person by whom the licence is required has a good reason for obtaining the same.

When the Act says firearms of less than 22" cannot be licensed, how can the Rules which come under the Act can say otherwise.

So far you have dwelt on RKBA. Why not now say what amendments to IPC are to be made?

Can you please tell me the legal difference of meaning between these two:

i) Arms Rules 1962 SCHEDULE -I category I(b) wherein it considers smooth bore guns having barrel of less than 20" in length as prohibited bores. Even smooth bore barrel less than 20" is perfectly legal if you have a license for it(i.e. PB License)

ii) The licensing authority shall grant---

(a) a licence under section 3 where the licence is required---

(i) by a citizen of India in respect of a smooth bore gun having a barrel of not less than twenty inches in length

Where is it saying that every gun below 22 inches is prohibited and cannot be issued a license? Rifle is also a gun, pistol and revolvers are also guns BUT not smooth bore.

How come then government owned Indian Ordnance Factories is selling Rifles/revolvers/pistols to people? Please check their website https://ofbindia.nic.in/index.php?wh=Sporting%20Arms&lang=en

Hindi says;

“Dhol, Ganwaar, Shoodra, Pashu, Naari..

Ye sab taadan ke adhikaari…JAI Shriram”

English says;

“EQUAL JUSTICE BEFORE LAW..Jai Democracy”

*****

Just click here;
https://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/ENGLISH-can-be-NATIONAL-AND-OFFICIAL-LANGUAGE-of-UOI-29859.asp

Can someone translate the above Hindi couplet for me?

Ramani Sir, 

I am trying to translate it, though it is a rough translation. However, it does convey the meaning of the couplet. 

It says Drums( Dhaol) Ganwar( person with no manners/education), Shudra ( low caste people/untouchables) and women deserve beatings and torture( Tadan).

Additional info: This couplet is from Manu Smriti which had guided the social and cultural norms of the Hindu community.

Suggestion: Please juxtapose it with the rights discourse: human rights, women's rights and animal rights!

Ramani ji, 

forgot to translate in sequence 

Drums (Dhol) Ganwar( mannersless/uneducated) Shudra( low caste on a 4 point caste hierarchy) , Pashu( animals, and Naari( women) 

Ye sab ( all of them) 

Taadan( torture--beating , battering,humiliation etc) ke Adhikari( deserves)

So : all the above object and subjects deserves to be tortured. In the above translation, I forgot to mention animals. 

You can read it like this: just as drum performs its task only when it is beaten;  uneducated, low caste people, animals, and women would perform thier taks only when they are ill treated/beaten/tortured. In toher words, it is alright  to , rather one must, torture and beat the above category of people. The literal translation rather is 

The above category of people have a right ( Adhikari) to be beaten and tortured!!

Right to be tortured and beaten....

Comparision of live beings with an inanimate object( relatively inanimate aboject like Drum)!!!

Totally absurd! And totally humiliating to women, the so called low caste people, and poor dear animals .....

Ms Ambika:

Thank you for the translation. Probably it is Hindi version of what is in Manu Smriti, which is in Sanskrit.  Women should mean Brahmin women also.

The same Manu Smriti says that if a Shudra marries a Brahmin woman, he should be put to death. When a woman [Brahmin or otherwise] is in the same category as a Shudra, what is wrong in his marrying her? It looks funny.

This couplet should have come under one of the topics dealing with DV Act, 498A etc. Then we would have got active response.