Is marriage expenses a dowry when groom is not getting a single penny?
RKP
(Querist) 03 May 2015
This query is : Resolved
We had recently seen a bride who was hardly a BA and not earning.
Groom is highly qualified above engineer and earning.
Both sides were happy with bride and grooms and agreed to go ahead with marriage.
We from the grooms side did not ask any dowry or anything and said whatever you wish you can give but only to the bride, as groom does not want anything as he is having a good job and settled.
The brides side were also pleased with this.
As in all other non south Indian marriages we the groom's side asked bride's side to pay for expenses of marriage.
The expense was also not much as we had asked for a simple wedding and nothing lavish with just booking a ordinary hall and spending on the normal food items with not more then 100 guests from grooms side.
This was where bride's side objected.
They wanted entire expenses to be beared by grooms side as their say was "since we are giving our daughter then why should we also give our money by spending on expenses in any form".
Also they wanted we groom's to bring an almost lavish PROCESSION to their door and organize wedding in a reputed hall in their city.
Their say was that they were against dowry.
Even spending on marriage expenses was a dowry indirectly.
They started accusing us for demanding dowry though indirectly.
Later on we even agreed to share 50% of marriage cost but bride's side remained defiant that we should pay all the expenses of the marriage.
Is marriage expenses a dowry when groom is not getting a single penny?
Guest
(Expert) 03 May 2015
Mr. RKP,
Yours is a very cleverly described academic query! Nice approach.
However, the gfollowing questions arise out of your description:
1) What direct concern you have with the dowry case?
2) Whether marriage has already taken place or not?
3) If marriage has taken place or not, whether FIR has been lodged with the police by the bride's side or not?
4) If no FIR made, for what purpose you have asked such a question without giving full description of the event after dispute about dowry arose?
RKP
(Querist) 03 May 2015
It is not at all a academic query as I am not a law student.
This is related to me and because of this attitude and false allegations of other party things are blocked.
I have given entire description of events and there is nothing more to add.
Purpose of the query is to know if NORMAL marriage expenses is a dowry when groom is not getting a single penny?
Guest
(Expert) 04 May 2015
Mr. RKP,
It is wrong to state that you have given entire description of events. You have not given any description to the real event, which could lead to the conclusion about demand of dowry or anything spent on dowry.
If this is not at all a academic query, any reason for not replying my queries No. (2) & (3)?
Further, if the query is related to you, with what relation, as a bridegroom, or any other relation with the groom?
Still further, if this is not at all a academic query, did the marriage take place?
When you have stated, "there is nothing more to add," that itself means nothing happened which could lead to question of dowry and that you have raised just a vague query of an academic interest.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 04 May 2015
Given facts do indicate that it is you and you wholly wrong side.
When facts so far not disclosed come out the situation may be darker.
when the girls side does not want to incur some expenditure and boy side demand so through their nose (unwillingly) or else no marriage.
This is dowry demand.
For specific reply you need to answer and points raised by Mr Dhingra.
Rajendra K Goyal
(Expert) 04 May 2015
Author need to reply the questions raised by the experts to have any advise.
RKP
(Querist) 04 May 2015
From my previous comment "that things are blocked" I meant to answer questions 2 and 3.
The process got blocked in the very first meeting and no engagement or marriage happened.
Since neither engagement or marriage happened nor did we receive or demanded any money and so bride side could not take any legal action.
It was initial bride side's demand that we incur all the expenditure though they were economically sound.
But we refused to incur it and asked them instead and that is when they started blaming us for demanding dowry and the marriage talks stopped.
The query is related to me as a groom.
I hope I have answered the questions.
If it still looks to be a academic question then pls ignore the VAGUE query.
Mr. Sudhir how did you decide that I and only I is on wrong side.
If I am wrong then is it correct that all bride's will before engagement offer a lot of things and then after some days may be before/after engagement refuse to keep their words and force grooms to marry or else accuse them of demanding dowry.
Is the demand of bride's side legal even though it goes through nose (unwillingly) of groom's side or else no marriage.
This is quite common now a days.
It is a trick the bride's side use now a days to screw the groom's side using dowry law.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 04 May 2015
your own description betrays you.
There is a consideration for marriage that they should bear the _________ expenses which they do not want.
you say
" if NORMAL marriage expenses is a dowry when groom is not getting a single penny?"
normal expenses are not dowry but when levied as a consideration for marriage then it falls within the definition of dowry. It is immaterial whether groom is getting or not getting anything.
you say
"This is quite common now a days."
It is one of the favorite sentence of dowry seekers.
better not to continue this discussion because if the matter goes to litigation and if the opposite side lawyer is member of this forum then all loopholes of your case are available to him.
RKP
(Querist) 04 May 2015
When I meant "quite common now a days" I meant misuse of the dowry laws by bride's side is quite common.
Asking grooms to bear all the expenses or else frame them is one of the favorite way of cunning and law misusing bride's side.
"Many grooms bear all expenses and so you also bear." is one of the favorite sentence of law misusing brides.
Labeling blindingly anybody as dowry seeker shows how much the law is deviated towards framing grooms blindly and want to suppress them.
It is fine to not continue this further.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 04 May 2015
It is good not to continue this thread and not to continue this proposal of marriage.
whether you are right or wrong, the marriage if materialised is not going to be happy one.
RKP
(Querist) 04 May 2015
Thanks Mr. Shudhir.
You are correct "whether you are right or wrong, the marriage if materialised is not going to be happy one.".
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 04 May 2015
It is good that conclusion has been drawn to remain happy.
The relationships founded on greed do not sustain.
Guest
(Expert) 04 May 2015
Mr. RKP,
You have put another vague query in response to Mr. Sudhir's reply, as follows:
"If I am wrong then is it correct that all bride's will before engagement offer a lot of things and then after some days may be before/after engagement refuse to keep their words and force grooms to marry or else accuse them of demanding dowry."
"Is the demand of bride's side legal even though it goes through nose (unwillingly) of groom's side or else no marriage."
Moreover, you did not respond to my question, "if the query is related to you, with what relation, as a bridegroom, or any other relation with the groom?"
When everything is blocked, marriage did not take place, no FIR in dowry issue was lodged by gir's side, even your initial query is proved as vague query. When nothing happened and no legal problem arose, there was no sense of posting such a vague query on your part. And so, when your inital query, in itself has proved amply that you posted just a vague academic qyery on account of which there was no sense in your posting another supplementary academic question, like the above, in response to Mr. Sudhir's reply.
Even about your supplementary query, I have the answer to that also, but I don't prefer to provide solutions to any vague or academic queries.
RKP
(Querist) 04 May 2015
Mr. Dhingra you did not read my line "The query is related to me as a groom." in previous comment.
I do not think any of the query is vague though you may think it is.
I just feel that you want to put the blame on me the groom's side and so calling all doubts as vague to support all demands of bride's.
I had also requested "If it still looks to be a academic question then pls ignore the VAGUE query.".
So pls ignore the question if you do not want to help instead of falsely claiming me of raising academic query.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 04 May 2015
"I do not think any of the query is vague though you may think it is.
I just feel that you want to put the blame on me the groom's side and so calling all doubts as vague to support all demands of bride's."
Sorry.
It is your own collection of words put on this thread which lead to the inferences by the experts.
Guest
(Expert) 04 May 2015
Mr. RKP,
Don't try to be oversmart. Before writing terse remarks of yours, you could better have re-read your own reply, which merely stated, "This is related to me," BUT NOT "with what relation, as a bridegroom, or any other relation with the groom?"
You could also have better re-read my query also, where I clearly acknowledged your writing by stating, "IF THE QUERY IS RELATED TO YOU", with what relation, as a bridegroom, or any other relation with the groom?
If you can't interpret your own statement or you don't read my message carefully that is your own problem, not mine.
A query is considered vague, when nothing happened and a fabricated query is put to present a false problem. We don't prefer to provide any solution to vague academic queries.
RKP
(Querist) 05 May 2015
Mr. Dhingra
Before commenting you again did not read my earlier two comment's statement "The query is related to me as a groom." which in simple english means I am the groom.
So not me but you are trying to be oversmart of yourself by incomplete reading and self imagining and concluding "nothing happened and a fabricated query, a false problem..." and by accusing me of putting vague academic questions.
Keep concluding and predicting about questions vague and non vagueness using your own imagination rather then on facts.
Well if this the way you give judgements unlike other lawyers then I do not want your solution.
Anyway thanks for putting me in debate of vague and non vague questions that I searched for other sites and got feedbackS in less time.
The feedback is "It's not dowry but when a dispute arises later,...".
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 05 May 2015
This forum shall be thankful to you for having sought our free advise.
T. Kalaiselvan, Advocate
(Expert) 06 May 2015
Dear author, though you appear to be frustrated due to the marriage stopped for a flimsy reason called who will bear the expenses of marriage, while seeking opinions from experts from such portals like this, that too at free of cost, you should maintain some ethics as well as politeness. You may not like some body's opinion because it is not suiting your taste but the fact is that anyone can give an opinion and not everyone will give a pleasing opinion.
Well let me not stretch the thread anymore. The fact is that the expenses on marriage cannot be considered as dowry and if the bride side is moving a complaint, they will draw a blank face and also defamatory case can be booked against them.
Lastly, this is out my curiosity, you said that the groom is, i.e., you are well employed and draw a handsome salary, economically well off, what made you not to accept the marriage expenses, after all it is your marriage. You should know the fact that even though you have not demanded anything from the girl side, her parents will certainly adorn her with rich jewels and equip her with lavish other articles, so a small adjustment would have made your married life very happy with the proposed bride, am I right?, well this is purely out of curiosity and not to hurt your feelings, please do not take it that way.
RKP
(Querist) 06 May 2015
Thanks T. Kalaiselvan for the suggestion.
I am not frustrated with the marriage stopped.
I wanted to be polite but repeated claims of vague query irritated me.
Regarding not going ahead with the marriage were few points which made us suspicious of their intentions:
> the first one as I said their claim of marriage expenses on hall,food as dowry
> during very first visit they asked me why my father's residential flat was not in my name. When we asked them what they have to do with this they smiled and evaded the question.
> what all properties we have.
> what was my father's pension amount and who all are the nominees.
> my home town is Mumbai and I stay at different places like Bangalore, Hyderabad etc. depending on my job.
they suggested that after marriage my parents stay at home town Mumbai and we new couples where ever I stay and gave examples of many modern couples staying alone.
I being the only son of my parents want to keep them with me always for reason like they are old, my mother remains sick and I feel my duty to take care of them. I was not ready to leave my parents alone and I refused for this explaining same reasons which they accepted at that point of time.
Point to be noted here is the bride's brother is married and still staying in joint family along with younger brother, mother, father, sister and paternal grand mother. Yet they are suggesting me to stay separately.
With such doubts we were still ready to go with entirely our own expenses also but for that we asked them to come to our home town Mumbai.
They could had easily afforded to come to my home town but which they refused.
So with all this our side people came under the impression that bride's side intentions are not looking good and they are trying to bend us completely in their way.
They were not ready to compromise on anything but expected us to accept everything.
If this is the case now then it can be harsher after marriage.
Dr J C Vashista
(Expert) 06 May 2015
It is not a proper platform for the "Unending and unnecessary debate".
Mr. RKP,
Don't drag this thread further, please stop.
Contact, consult and engage a local lawyer for further professional service, if you may feel.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 May 2015
agreed with Dr Vashista.
It is high time you should pay a lawyer and consult him across the table.
His views will not irritate you when you are paying for this.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 May 2015
It is your decision to hide the facts initially and release the same on installment basis and get irritated when your query is described as vague.
It is now only that you decided that they wanted to know about pension nomination of your father. It is hard reality that after his death you or your wife are certainly not the claimant of pension.
You do not seem to be kissing the luck which saved you from miserably failure marraige.
RKP
(Querist) 06 May 2015
Dr J C Vashista my last comment was not on my own but in response to T. Kalaiselvan comment "what made you not to accept the marriage expenses".
Well if replying is dragging then I will not drag this thread further.
Guest
(Expert) 06 May 2015
Mr. RKP,
In your latest reply addressed to me yesterday, you still tried to play oversmart in trying to indirectly declare me a lier, by stating, "Before commenting you again did not read my earlier two comment's statement "The query is related to me as a groom." which in simple english means I am the groom."
So, about your stated two comments, in your first comment (2 days ago), you merely stated, "THIS RELATED TO ME and because of this attitude and false allegations of other party things are blocked," you nowhere made a mention, "as a groom."
But you still tried to insist, "Mr. Dhingra you did not read my line "The query is related to me as a groom." in previous comment, while there was no mention of the words, "as a groom". YOU MAY BETTER RE-READ YOUR OWN SIMPLE ENGLISH STATEMENT TO POINT OUT WHERE DID YOU MENTION YOURSELF TO BE A GROOM. YOUR STATEMENT IS REPRODUCED BELOW AGAIN FOR YOUR READY REFERENCE:
"This is related to me and because of this attitude and false allegations of other party things are blocked."
Now you have tried to prove me illiterate also by stating, "which in simple english means I am the groom."
Anyway, thanks for making me understand your SIMPLE English that suggests that I should assume at my own that if the case related to GROOM'S SIDE (third person), the groom must have been only you, not someone else. So, I hope, you would also expect the judge of the case, if the case goes for trial, to presume you as a groom, while every time you have been harping the tune of "groom's side" by not making who was groom and what relation you had with the groom.
Every time you supplemented your query with contradictory statement devoid of facts to add more suspicion about your query. For example, now you have stated, "we were still ready to go with entirely our own expenses also but for that we asked them to come to our home town Mumbai, whereas that statement is absent in your original query, as well as in your subsequent clarification. Your earlier statement, "Later on we even agreed to share 50% of marriage cost but bride's side remained defiant that we should pay all the expenses of the marriage." Again in your another statement, you stated, "But we refused to incur it and asked them instead and that is when they started blaming us for demanding dowry and the marriage talks stopped." Both your contradictory statements clearly show that you are fabricating your supplementary story just according to suit the queries of different experts, which counters your own earlier two stories.
Now coming to the crux of the problem, when you, "asked bride's side to pay for expenses of marriage." and again when you "asked them to come to our home town Mumbai," CAN YOU STATE WITH WHAT RIGHT YOU COULD COMPEL BRIDE'S SIDE TO BEAR THE MARRIAGE EXPENSES OR TO GO TO YOUR YOUR NATIVE PLACE TO COBDUCT MARRIAGE CEREMONIES? WERE THEY INDEBTED TO YOU OR YOUR FAMILY?
So, can't you also understand your own simple English that putting any compulsion on bride's side can be termed as a demand for dowry, whereas you have nowhere clarified in your initial query as well as you supplementary posts, what nature of expenses you included in the term of "marriage expenses."
You should rather be thankful for the mercy of the bride's side if they have not lodged any FIR against you and your parents. kith and kin for your demands. Had they filed a case against groom's side, at first the police and thereafter the court would definitely have made to understand your own simple English.
When you were let scot free by the bride's side, what problem made you ask such a nasty query and that too stretching your thread unduly with your disparaging remarks?
SAINATH DEVALLA
(Expert) 06 May 2015
Dear querist
Had U come out with the correct facts in UR initial post,there would not have been a debate.First thing U have to learn is to use proper language when U are replying to the experts questions.UR prolonged debate with Mr.Dhingraji was unwarranted,if U were expecting a correct solution to UR problem,if at all it was real.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 07 May 2015
The problem with the queriest is that he has not read the definition of dowry.
Another problem is that due to his attitude the experts of this forum (not atleast me) will not provide him this definition which is a matter of cut and paste for us.
As clearly highlighted by Mr Dhingra and earlier by me as well that this gentleman had been compelling conditions for marriage which were not conducive to them.
He also doe snot understand that he has driven them to the limit where they have to allege dowry demand.
He still needs to work hard to ensure that when they actually register a case against him and his aged parent (and others who participated in the "negotiation")at their home town and have them picked by police from Mumbai. Then let him spend a fortune from just getting bail and them keep begging before his employer in Bangalore, for frequent leave (may be twice a month or more) to attends dates (lest bail cancelled)
He fails to understand that the experts of this forum do not know him and have opportunity of just reading what he has typed in the initial query and which is full of material against him. It is not the forum rather he is to blame if he feels misunderstood. 2+2 is always 4.
When cornered he has submitted information (either hidden earlier or invented later) wherein he narrated unpleasant questioning by girl side.
He also does not understand that he is running the risk of their lawyer (if member of this forum) getting loopholes of his case.
He is also working in Bangalore but does not want to remain away from Mumbai based parents.
SAINATH DEVALLA
(Expert) 07 May 2015
I feel the querist has received enough food for his appetite, hence it could be stopped.
RKP
(Querist) 07 May 2015
Good story LOL
Excellent and unique expertise PS Dhingra and Mr. Sudhir Kumar.
Thanks and stop the debate.
