Clerk as programmer
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 29 November 2015
This query is : Resolved
I got govt job as a clerk in ministrial cadre in 1995. Since, I was having computer programming knowledge so I willingly, in the hope that later or sooner office will promote me programmer post and in the interest of office I started programming since year 2000. In due course, now I am doing pure technical and programming job, which is not my job part. When I ask officers to give me programmer post they says there is neither computer cader nor such any rules to promote a clerk to the programmer post. My lawful questions:
1. Can I obtain programmer post lawfully? If yes, then under which law and section? Any existing example please?
2. Can office issue me charge sheet on my refusal to doing programming work which is not part of my job/service rule/job advertisement?
3. Can I sue in the human right commission that office is exploiting me and threating me of charge sheet/suspension for not doing of those works for which there is seperate cadre and higher salaried persons works?
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 30 November 2015
1. Can I obtain programmer post lawfully? If yes, then under which law and section? Any existing example please?
ANS : Yes you can provided :-
(I) there is a post of programmer.
(II) the post can be filled by promoting a clerk as per the recruitment rules of the post.
(III) deptt is willing to fill the post.
(IV) there is no other mode of filling the post.
(V) you are otherwise suitable and qualified for the post as per the recruitment rules of the post.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 30 November 2015
2. Can office issue me charge sheet on my refusal to doing programming work which is not part of my job/service rule/job advertisement?
ans :
NO - IT IS NOT YOUR CHARTER OF DUTIES
YES - as per FR-11 services of govt servant can be utilised on any job with/without extra remunerations.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 30 November 2015
3. Can I sue in the human right commission that office is exploiting me and threatening me of charge sheet/suspension for not doing of those works for which there is separate cadre and higher salaried persons works?
NOT POSSIBLE IN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 30 November 2015
Thank you so much for detailed reply. I have some doubt, and if you please clear them, it would be great again. 1. You mean I should write a letter to office by mentioning above points? Is there any other example please? 2. As you mention "as per FR-11 services of govt servant can be utilised on any job with/without extra remunerations." Then how can I safeguard by chargesheet/suspension please?
P. Venu
(Expert) 30 November 2015
Are your services deployed as a programmer substantially? if so, you may make a representation.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 30 November 2015
Thank you sir for your participation. I was just appointed as a LDC by passing written exam and typing test. As of now, I am performing full fledged programmer job which is purely technical and for that different cadre, pay scale and higher computer programming knowledge required. When I am willingly doing the job, no error, non any false mark in my annual confidential report (ACR); as I hope so, so being human when I asked for programmer post they refused by saying that there is no rule non any provision to do and when I have refused to work as a programmer and requested for alloting me clerical job, they have issued me show cause notice saying that "you are disobeying officers orders for doing the job and hampering govt work "Rajkiya karya mein badha". Kindly provide lawful solution.
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 30 November 2015
Reference your last post: Now you need the assistance and support of an able Labor Law Consultant/Service Matter lawyer to reply to the show cause notice properly and you may avail the services of an able 'Defense Assistant' later.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 30 November 2015
what prevented you from making full facts in the beginning. What do you gain by playing hide and seek with experts of this forum.
No doubt the adivse here is free and experts are wasting their valuable time in this activity. that does not mean that experts be treated so lightly.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 30 November 2015
Hello Sudhir sir, I really don't know what do you mean please? This is my first request and whatever is truth with me I am writing as it is. I don't know what facts I have not mentioned in beginning. I got show cause notice on 28.11.2015 and requested here on next day and was trying to know that can office issue me show cause notice, chargesheet, and/or suspension? I am really 100 time sorry if my writing is not upto the mark or if it seems bit lightly. Once again sorry sir.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 30 November 2015
Thank you Kumar Doab sir. I shall follow your advise.
P. Venu
(Expert) 30 November 2015
Have you mentioned in the self assessment your ACR (presntly APAR) that you have been performing the tasks of a programmer and if so, how the Reporting and Reviewing Officers have commented on this aspect?
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 01 December 2015
you hve in the first instance not reported that
" I have refused to work as a programmer and requested for alloting me clerical job, they have issued me show cause notice saying that "you are disobeying officers orders for doing the job and hampering govt work "Rajkiya karya mein badha". Kindly provide lawful solution. "
this is a vital information.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 01 December 2015
you have still not intimated as to in which circumstances you refused the programmer job and whether this can be treated or not treated as obstruction of work.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 01 December 2015
Hello P. Venu sir, "how the Reporting and Reviewing Officers have commented on this aspect?", sir that we can't know because it remains confidential, but I hope that there should not be any negative remarks on my mentioning of doing programming tasks. I think person can not write those tasks which he do not performs in official govt docs.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 01 December 2015
Hello Sudhir sir, I am again thankful to you for your continue helpful replies. "you have still not intimated as to in which circumstances you refused the programmer job..." Answer is : Disappointment. Disappointnent raised by seeing that there is no written process for computer cadre and/or none initiatives of promoting a UDC to programmer post even after successful completion of 15 years. Being human being when there is no chance of getting rewards and continueously getting similar "treatment" as other clerks, I unhappy and felling frustruted and this generated disappointment. I am really thankful to all experts on their helpful replies.
P. Venu
(Expert) 01 December 2015
Nowadays, the entire APAR is being communicated. Even otherwise, the same could be obtained under RTI.
Guest
(Expert) 01 December 2015
All the three of your queries are irrelevant in the absence of the following information, which is wanting in your decription.
1) In what scale of pay you have been posted as clerk;
2) What is the scale of pay of a programmer; and
3) Is there a regularly sanctioned post of a programmer in your office?
4) What are the prescribed conditions of recruitment for the post of a programmer, as per the Recruitment Rules?
Please provide the requisite information for suitable advice.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 01 December 2015
Hello P. Venu sir, thanks again for really helpful reply. I was not aware that I can obtain APAR under RTI. I don't know how it help me to get my goal, but yes I shall apply for it for sure.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 01 December 2015
Hello PS Dhingra, first let me thanks to you for participation and time giving to my request. Here are required info please: 1. In 1995, I got selected in 950-3050 pay scale of 5th pay commission. My basic was 950. 2. Programmer pay scale is: Pay band: PB-2 (9300-34800) Grade pay is 5400 and basic is 9300. Currently, my pay band is 9300-34100, grade pay is 4800 and basic is 19900. 3.No sir, neither sanctioned post nor any cadre please. 4. Sir it is very big answer in other govt dept. but programmer must have MCA/BE/B.tech, M.Sc. in information technology/M.tech/MBA (IT) qualification. I don't have none of them, rather I have some other similar degrees in information technology i.e. PGDCA (Post Graduate diploma in computer applications) and OCP (Oracle certified professional).
Guest
(Expert) 01 December 2015
Thanks for the info. But, unless there is a sanctioned post and rules of recruitment, you can't claim any such post of a programmer, administratively or even legally. About your refusal to work as a programmer, better ask the authorities to officially prescribe job list for you. If the authorities include programmin in your job, you can very well represent against such order, which do not pertain to the job you were recruited.
Human rights commission cannot be approached. Your right cannot be established to have been denied, as neither the post exists nor recrutment rules are there, nor you fulfil the qualification for programmer, nor the post is in line of your promotion.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 01 December 2015
Thanks again sir. Obvoiusly, when there is no rule, post none authority will cross the boundaries of ruling, but I think there is no rule of making new rules. Rules and laws has been amended and new introduced as and when time, situations changes. I am not putting any argument sir (neither I can ever), I simply humble that is there any chance that hon'ble court may issue necessary guideline to make the rules. Now question may arise that why hon'ble court may issue guidelines / force for making rules and favourable rule for me.... no chance, right sir? Then my hard work gone wasted? My disappointment is correct? Who any clerk will ever come in front to serve his/her knowledge in the interst of office? Perople simply make their mind that "never show smartness in govt offices"? Sir, I am not getting the meaning of your this line "Your right cannot be established to have been denied".
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 01 December 2015
Thanks again sir. Obvoiusly, when there is no rule, post none authority will cross the boundaries of ruling, but I think there is no rule of making new rules. Rules and laws has been amended and new introduced as and when time, situations changes. I am not putting any argument sir (neither I can ever), I simply humble that is there any chance that hon'ble court may issue necessary guideline to make the rules. Now question may arise that why hon'ble court may issue guidelines / force for making rules and favourable rule for me.... no chance, right sir? Then my hard work gone wasted? My disappointment is correct? Who any clerk will ever come in front to serve his/her knowledge in the interst of office? Perople simply make their mind that "never show smartness in govt offices"? Sir, I am not getting the meaning of your this line "Your right cannot be established to have been denied".
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 01 December 2015
Oh... I am sorry, for double post... slow internet, so I pressed submit twicely...
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 02 December 2015
you said
[how the Reporting and Reviewing Officers have commented on this aspect?", sir that we can't know because it remains confidential, but I hope that there should not be any negative remarks on my mentioning of doing programming tasks. I think person can not write those tasks which he do not performs in official govt docs. ]
from 2008 onwards the performance report is to be disclosed to the official in full whether adverse or not, copy to be given and signature obtained.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 02 December 2015
Unfortunately the courts have no powers to compell a department to create a post.
the given facts do indicate that :-
(I) there is no post of programmer.
(II) there was no promise to you to be created post of programmer when you started doing programming job.
(III)in all 20 years of service you could not convince the deptt of need of programmer because you did the job free of cost. You probably never met highest authorities and contended meeting with SO/US at the most DS level.
(IV) you probably never represented in writing for the fear of being assigned clerks job.
(V) even if the post is created you are not qualified.
In such case you have no case for being made programmer.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 02 December 2015
as far as proposed disciplinary action is concerned you have been issued only SCN. If such SCN care replied property then these wither away.
In case the deptt really wants to take action a proper chargesheet is issued and inquiry is to be held.
In such inquiry you are entitled to seek help of any serving/retired central/state govt employee to argue for you and his functionary is called DEFENCE ASSISTANT. Though officially they cannot charge but practically people do not do this job free.
SO you have to consult person knowledgeable in disciplinary affairs from this stage itself.
Guest
(Expert) 02 December 2015
With the term, "Your right cannot be established to have been denied," I meant to convey that you have not been denied of any of your right where intervention of HRC is called for.
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 02 December 2015
You may now you with active consultation of an able Labor Law Consultant/Service Matter lawyer reply to the show cause notice properly and you may avail the services of an able 'Defense Assistant' later.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 02 December 2015
Hello Sudhir sir, 1. Yes there is no post of programmer, but in IT deptt, alongwith me there are 2 programmers, 1 sr. Programmer works on deputation. Now if this info is similar like above (refusal of doing programming work) i.e. I did not written in first post, so I just did not mentioned because I thought it is irrelevant and if it is required then I am again sorry for my understanding please. 2. There was no written promise rather I got oral assurance many time by that time officers that we will initiate required permission procedure and you will get benefited, but all those were only oral, which do not have any importance in hon'ble court. 3. I met many times and every time I got oral assurance. Yes sir, I have written around 5-7 times for it too, but no reply from admin. 4. No sir, there was never any fear of getting clerical job, because when I got the job I worked like clerk for around 5 years and I was much happy. 5. If I can't become programmer ever, then question arise that then why administration allowed me to work like programmer, responsible officers should be punished? Still, I am doing programming as a clerk that at least I should not drop my goodness, whether it is in my luck or not, almighty god is there whose law is so flexible, justicefull and always accepted since many centuries even thought it is slow, but justice is there (ha ha ha, Probably I am writing like many others who looses the match!). I would like to thanks many time to all experts who replied me and spend their valuable time free of cost. Best Regards to all of you hon'ble experts.
K.S.Srinivas
(Expert) 06 December 2015
Agreed with Sri Kumar Doab.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 07 December 2015
1. Yes there is no post of programmer,
THEN YOU HAVE NO PROMOTION TO STAKE UPON
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 07 December 2015
but in IT deptt, alongwith me there are 2 programmers, 1 sr. Programmer works on deputation.
SO IF THERE IS POST AND PERSON WORKING ON DEPUTATION THERE ARE RECRUITMENT RULES
YOU DID NOT SAY WHETHER YOU ARE ELIGIBLE FOR THIS DEPUTATION
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 07 December 2015
Now if this info is similar like above (refusal of doing programming work) i.e. I did not written in first post, so I just did not mentioned because I thought it is irrelevant and if it is required then I am again sorry for my understanding please.
NO NEED TO BE SORRY BEFORE US. YOU SUFFER IF YOU HIDE INFORMATION FROM FORUM.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 07 December 2015
2. There was no written promise rather I got oral assurance many time by that time officers that we will initiate required permission procedure and you will get benefited, but all those were only oral, which do not have any importance in hon'ble court.
YOU MET BUT AT WHAT LEVEL
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 07 December 2015
3. I met many times and every time I got oral assurance. Yes sir, I have written around 5-7 times for it too, but no reply from admin.
AT WHAT LEVEL
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 07 December 2015
4. No sir, there was never any fear of getting clerical job, because when I got the job I worked like clerk for around 5 years and I was much happy.
THIS WHAT YOU SAY.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 14 December 2015
No rule, no cadre, no post, no qualification, not in job role, but still a person is doing higher technical jobs; just in the interest of office and in hope, later or sooner he will get rewards of his goodness. If world works only as per written and approved hard coded rules, then I shall loud a lot to all those "Girish" that "stop fool, you will get nothing; throw away your goodness". They shall ask me, then why are you still doing the job and on your goodness, then my reply will be I am optimistic, belives in the power of time and God (because time is more powerfull than God, thats why I am putting time before God). Now, I come to your points: 1. I have said just now. 2. When I have got the job in clerical cadre, it means in my this office, I shall never be posted in other office on deputation (untill and unless there is same conditions). 3. I did not hidden anything delibrating, because I know you are helping me, so I should tell you everything which I "knows", if something left or miss expressed then it is my foolishness and less knowledge only sir. I just thought that when deputation rukes are not applied for me, then I think it is irrlevant to discuss. 4. I met and written many time at the most highest level authority, but every time I returned with a lollipop in my hand! 5. I belives in " karma" whether it is clerk or programmer, because I think every work is important and when work is important; person auto becomes important but if person looses his/her importance and/or sees no chance of return, then "
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 14 December 2015
... I don't know why above message stopped me writting ... here it contd... "disappointment generates and face becomes sad...".
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 18 July 2016
First of all, I am heartly thankful to all respected forum experts who took participation and provided me most valuable inputs. I am reopening the thread as there are few more new deveopments took place:
1. I refused to work as programmer because I am not getting any allowance nor any technical post.
2. Office issued me SCN.
3. I replied by saying that doing programming is not my duty part, i am not being paid for it.
4. Office alloted me clerical job.
5. All computer related tasks which I had performed for around 15 years, assigned to a local compter firm by tender process.
6. That firm completed the work as raised the bill around of Rs. 7.0 lakh.
Now, office will pay 7.0 lakh to company but it can not give me very nominal amount of increment or allowance which sum may around 50000 or 60000 because there is no rule. What a worst Indian System !
Who is responsible for this financial irregularity?
Guest
(Expert) 18 July 2016
Your question asking for financial irregularity is not a legal problem.
However, so far as irregularity is concerned, if you are not sure that the work or expenditure was not within the administrative or financial powers of the the authorities assigning work and making payment to the private agency, you can report to the vigilance wing of your departmetn.
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 18 July 2016
You have been sufficiently advised.
All points raised have been explained.
Focus on SCN and come out of it clean.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 19 July 2016
Can I appeal in local hon'ble session court to stay on payment to private agency, if yes in which section please? Work of Rs. 7.0 lakh have been performing free of cost since last around 10 years and I did not got any increment nor post, so I wish to show my ultimate pain to hon'ble court that before making payment to agency, I should either rewarded by 3 increments (yes, there is writren rule in our office's ruling, that office supremo can grant 3 maximum increments to an employee) or hon'ble court may issue orders to the office to allot me programmer post on following grounds:
1. He had performed such a valuable work on lower payments out of his duty chart.
2. By alloting programmer post, office will not receive any substantial financial burden.
3. Such allocation of posts, is a message to employees that if you works hard, admin and courts are with you more harder than you to reward and a healthy competition theme will be developed.
Guest
(Expert) 19 July 2016
Mr. Girish,
So, you wish to show your ultimate pain to hon'ble court by putting the contractor to loss of Rs. seven lakhs, is it not?
Also, why the contractor would like to get such a huge loss at your hands just to satisfy your ego, whims & fancy?
By the way, why do you feel that the court would give you stay order, if the contractor has done the work on the basis of a genuine work order?
To be frank, with the present post of yours it seems as if yours is not a genuine problem, but a hypothetical academic query for which you frantically seek answer with legal back up.
Sorry, Mr. Girish, it is better if you don't stretch the thread any more.
Kumar Doab
(Expert) 19 July 2016
Learned Senior Expert Shri P.S.Dhingra has posted the final comments.
The thread may pls be deemed as 'Resolved' and closed.
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 19 July 2016
Sir Dhingra, No, I am not saying that my pain is office has to pay seven lakh to the contractor, I wish to request to hon'ble court that due to red-tappism and to satisfy the ego of office itself, office just side line me and my huge successful experience and got work done at seven lakh cost, while it could had been done at minimum rate either by giving me nominal increment or at just zero cost by giving me programmer post. Obviously, I am just singing my song of increment and/or programmer post, but if office listen at me, it could have save huge seven lakh. I know, I am trying to fetch the most valuable legal advice free of cost by this online way, which is itself not a genuine, but since this platform has been provided to just discuss, so I am continue on it please. Story is: Employee denied to work, because office can not fulfill his "Ego", office suffered loss of seven lakh, will hob'ble court just throw my appeal to dust bean? On which ground my case is poor? How it can be proved that I am suffering from ego? Sir, I know you are very much learned than me or like me prople, but please think on it from mine side that I have hard worked much, just in hope that one day office will reward me by increment or post and when office just issue SCN on my deny of work and ready to pay seven lakh to others, what happens on me, it the point sir, it the point ONLY !
Guest
(Expert) 19 July 2016
Mr. Girish,
Sorry to point out, when legality of a case has to be judged, impartiality has to be nobody can think from your side or the administration side, where matter demands impartiality.
If you think your case has some strong base and you want answers to your unending supplementary questions even, just file a case to get the answers from the court of law. Nobody can prohibit you. I am not supposed to give answers on behalf of the court. I have expressed my opinion about your case, it is your sweet will, you may or may not agree on that, But I may point out to you that emotion based case has always a very weak base.
In your original story you have never made any mention about your increment, now you have stated, "I am just singing my song of increment."
By the way when your increment has been stopped and on what ground?
Girish Sharma
(Querist) 19 July 2016
Sir Dhingra, I am once more thankful you for your reply. I am not disagree with you because the points which you gave are really lawful. Since, as I requested, this is first case of its own kind, so base and facts are emotions only, if earlier in any court such kind of cases finalised then I may knock the court door in references of those cases. I am just talking about those additional increments which can be granted by my office's supremo as per prevailing rules of my office's service rules of increments and promotions. In our service rules, my supremo can grant 3 increments on behalf of extraordinary perfroming the job. Now, problem is if supremo grants 1 or 2 or 3 extra increments to me, other employees will also demand. No problem sir, I just discussed here that there should be lawful enforcement in favour of employee if provided that: 1. he/she has done the job for 10 or more years 2. no chargesheet in extra duty 3. he/she saved more than money which is gets as sum of salaries and allowances yearly. 4. some more points which focus on legal facts so that administration can stand lawful.
